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Thread: Putin's Message to Obama

  1. #41
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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    CJ, why don't you see if you can get the CRMP to take on this job you see as necessary?
    I don't see any job as necessary now, nor do I see the RCMP, perhaps the equivalent of your ATF, but basically a federal police force, as having a role in Syria.

    Perhaps that was a slag at Canada's military - I'm not aware of the American military having a poor view of the Canadian military and the people who serve in it.

    Canada does not claim to be the world's only superpower - nor does Canada claim to be the world's morality master - That seems to be America's self appointed job. Canada doesn't have the weaponry that the American military is proposing be used in a limited manner now, in Syria - it's why Canada has said it will not participate. But if you think Canada hasn't been at America's side in many of its interventions in the world, you're not paying attention.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by ttwtt78640 View Post
    The French are broke and likely see this as a chance to get a much needed infusion of U.S. cash for spendning a minor amount of it on "helping" the U.S. blow stuff up in Syria.
    Yeah, and it is the Frnech that have filed 5 Actionable Action Resolutions in the UN.....the same who say they don't need no stinking badges to go into another Sovereign Country.

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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I don't see any job as necessary now, nor do I see the RCMP, perhaps the equivalent of your ATF, but basically a federal police force, as having a role in Syria.

    Perhaps that was a slag at Canada's military - I'm not aware of the American military having a poor view of the Canadian military and the people who serve in it.

    Canada does not claim to be the world's only superpower - nor does Canada claim to be the world's morality master - That seems to be America's self appointed job. Canada doesn't have the weaponry that the American military is proposing be used in a limited manner now, in Syria - it's why Canada has said it will not participate. But if you think Canada hasn't been at America's side in many of its interventions in the world, you're not paying attention.

    No! No slag whatsoever on your military, I know nothing of them. It was more a tongue in cheek comment. Mainly just to say, let Canada handle it. We're sick of war, we're broke and we REALLY need to set this out. Can you make that happen bud? Oh, and you are correct, America does make those foolish claims. I wish that chest thumping would end.

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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    No! No slag whatsoever on your military, I know nothing of them. It was more a tongue in cheek comment. Mainly just to say, let Canada handle it. We're sick of war, we're broke and we REALLY need to set this out. Can you make that happen bud? Oh, and you are correct, America does make those foolish claims. I wish that chest thumping would end.
    It's easy to sit this one out now, and you should. No good can come from any half-assed "teaching a lesson" to Assad. If you're not prepared to invade and take over, best to just let the actors in the region fight it out and when they get tired, set up relations with whomever remains standing.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    And George H W Bush was CIA, what's the difference?
    GHWB was a senior administrator, political appointed manager, not an operative like Putin was. That's the difference.

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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaudreaux View Post
    GHWB was a senior administrator, political appointed manager, not an operative like Putin was. That's the difference.
    I still see no difference. The time line of CIA atrocities is exceedingly lengthy, and he was their director for a period. And lets not forget about his father!

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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    My response is simply this...if you don't like the messenger simply superimpose the face of someone you'd find more appealing and still listen to the message.

    Everything he has stated is rational, reasonable, and responsible. Trying to undermine the message with fallacious comparisons simply because the messenger is a political opponent is disingenuous.

    If there is actual evidence then our duty is to reveal it. Claiming how it was obtained is a secret, therefore we can't show it demands we grant our government a level of trust it has yet to prove itself worthy of. Basically, our government lies to us ALL THE TIME!

    It is also true that the Syrian government has requested investigation of the incident, so why must we act militarily before such an investigation by NEUTRAL parties is concluded?

    Finally, it is also true that we will inevitably cause "collateral damage" among the civilian population. Strange that we'd think ourselves morally justified to cause such harm on the grounds that such harm has already been caused.

    It is irrelevent that the message comes from Putin, it is still a valid message nonetheless.
    Fair enough. However, one must ultimately remember that the situation in question does not exist within any kind of political or international vacuum.

    We ultimately have to ask ourselves just what it is exactly that Putin's Russia (as well as Iran, China, North Korea, and any number of other authoritarian governments which happen to be opposed to our interests) ultimately have to gain here by preventing the United States from toppling Assad's regime. Backing down from a confrontation in Syria now could very well destroy what little international credibility the Obama Administration has left, and encourage nations like Iran and North Korea to behave more boldly without fear of repercussion.

    After all, what possible basis could we be said to have for criticizing nuclear weapons testing in any nation if we allow Bashar Assad to use chemical weapons on his people with more or less total impunity?

    Putin has absolutely no problem with any of these scenarios, simply because breaking back of Western global power in general, and American global hegemony in particular, has been one of his foremost goals basically since day one of his administration.

    If you were to find yourself lost in the woods on a stormy night, and a seemingly friendly bear happened along and made a very reasonable argument for why it would probably be a good idea to spend the night in his cave, sheltered from the elements, would you not be more than a little apprehensive about taking him up on it?

    Needless to say, it is entirely possible for someone to say exactly the right things for all of the wrong reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by DDD View Post
    Perhaps because we, all of us are peaceful people. We do not want war even if it is already occurring. We may want to avoid it and would rather accept a peaceful lie than a required truthful ugly war.
    All too true, unfortunately.

    It'd be a shame if the modern Western World were to ultimately wind up repeating the mistakes of such historical wet blankets as Neville Chamberlain in our quest for "peace" uber alles.
    Last edited by Gathomas88; 09-05-13 at 03:25 AM.

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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Putin will never be in favor of UN actions against a country's leader for crimes against the leader's own people. To do so would put himself in jeopardy of equal reprisals.
    Correct. He'll also never be able to resist an act that he feels would embarrass the US and will happily take every chance he can to strike at the heart of the US-Russia rivalry.

    Granting temporary asylum to Edward Snowden is a very good example of that.

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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    Fair enough. However, one must ultimately remember that the situation in question does not exist within any kind of political or international vacuum.

    We ultimately have to ask ourselves just what it is exactly that Putin's Russia (as well as Iran, China, North Korea, and any number of other authoritarian governments which happen to be opposed to our interests) ultimately have to gain here by preventing the United States from toppling Assad's regime. Backing down from a confrontation in Syria now could very well destroy what little international credibility the Obama Administration has left, and encourage nations like Iran and North Korea to behave more boldly without fear of repercussion.

    It'd be a shame if the modern Western World were to ultimately wind up repeating the mistakes of such historical wet blankets as Neville Chamberlain in our quest for "peace" uber alles.
    And if one were advocating "peace uber alles" you might be correct.

    However, when one is advocating strong mutual alliances with like minded nations and exhibiting a willingness to adhere to the terms of such alliances, then most of your questions are answered.

    So that's how you preceive the USA? A nation exerting an indirect form of government, and of imperial dominance in which we "The Hegemon" (leader state) rules geopolitically subordinate states by the implied means of power, the threat of force, rather than by direct military force?

    Apparently this is beginning to require the ever more frequent application of "direct force" from time to time as well. Our subjects appear to be getting more and more unruly.

    Much of this kind of thought comes from the understandible pride we have in our current status as the strongest military and economic power on earth. (Although our economic might seems to be falling a bit behind our military power.) Yet where have such policies gotten us? We are feared by some, hated by others, admired by some, despised by others...and still everyone has to stop and think "how will the USA respond if we do this or that?" Now I put it to YOU this way...how would YOU feel about any nation whose actions forced you to pause and think "how will the (place nation of choice) respond if we do this or that?"

    In my mind the greatest respect goes to a nation that has the power to act militarily, but always seeks the best diplomatic solution to any problem. Thus reserving military intervention as the last, least acceptible option until all others have been exhausted. This does not mean appeasement because alliances are always respected. It merely means using all the other non-violent but still useful diplomatic tools in any nations arsenal: Mediation, aid, advice, trade sanctions, embargoes, etc.

    That's my position. I don't believe we rule the world, and so I don't believe it is our place to act like we do.
    Last edited by Captain Adverse; 09-05-13 at 03:35 AM.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    If you were to find yourself lost in the woods on a stormy night, and a seemingly friendly bear happened along and made a very reasonable argument for why it would probably be a good idea to spend the night in his cave, sheltered from the elements, would you not be more than a little apprehensive about taking him up on it?

    Needless to say, it is entirely possible for someone to say exactly the right things for all of the wrong reasons.
    The stupidest part in this analogy is that the Bear has experience with many of people in similar religion! The stupidest part is that this is not a secret neither. Chechen are small people locked somewhere there in the back of that cave struggling to come out alive as we speak. The cave captured and ripped Afghanistan before. The Bear killed the Ottoman Empire. The Bears Serbian little kids caused us harm ever since the Ottoman Empire.

    So the Bears reputation in treating people of this religion in unkindly terms is not a secret. Yet you have people considering entering it nevertheless...

    The worst part in this, they will be crawling out of the cave without their wealth, clothes, skin, meat, and perhaps even vital organs. Just ugly bones begging for help, and then it would be up to us to do something about it!

    If we do not then China might. How it would treat the ugly living bones that cry for help may not be as known for now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    All too true, unfortunately.

    It'd be a shame if the modern Western World were to ultimately wind up repeating the mistakes of such historical wet blankets as Neville Chamberlain in our quest for "peace" uber alles.
    Right, the Brit leader who came back with a signed document from Hitler that was suppose to mean that Hitler would abide by it. Having said that what you guys need is a good momentum.

    Alternatively, I think all this fuss is just for Russia to ask something more from the Syrian conflict. I think Assad is going down one way or another. Just that him relying on Putin posits Putin to a better place to ask more from the G20 meeting that will come up.

    It is trade fellas. More percentage for Putin's RT influencing this much in Assad.
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
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