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Thread: Putin's Message to Obama

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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Painter View Post
    Very nicely done.
    I may not agree with your overall point, but you did a spectacular job at presenting your argument.
    I am just simply against intervention, regardless of what Putin has to say.
    You'd make a good adviser to the press secretary or something like that lol.
    Thanks for the compliment.

    That actually is more or less what I already do with the Army. History and international relations are subjects which grab my interest, so I tend to be pretty good at keeping up with all of the various trivia surrounding them.

    As far as intervention goes, I'm not entirely convinced that it is the right course of action either. There are a lot of different factors that still need to be weighed (most importantly, whether or not we can keep Al Qaeda affiliated groups from coming to power should Assad's regime fall) before we even consider committing ourselves to the conflict.

    I simply found it to be absolutely mind boggling that Putin, of all people, would try and play "high and mighty" on the issue.

    He doesn't care one iota for any of the "innocents" in Syria. He's simply looking out for number one.

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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    My response is simply this...if you don't like the messenger simply superimpose the face of someone you'd find more appealing and still listen to the message.

    Everything he has stated is rational, reasonable, and responsible. Trying to undermine the message with fallacious comparisons simply because the messenger is a political opponent is disingenuous.

    If there is actual evidence then our duty is to reveal it. Claiming how it was obtained is a secret, therefore we can't show it demands we grant our government a level of trust it has yet to prove itself worthy of. Basically, our government lies to us ALL THE TIME!

    It is also true that the Syrian government has requested investigation of the incident, so why must we act militarily before such an investigation by NEUTRAL parties is concluded?

    Finally, it is also true that we will inevitably cause "collateral damage" among the civilian population. Strange that we'd think ourselves morally justified to cause such harm on the grounds that such harm has already been caused.

    It is irrelevent that the message comes from Putin, it is still a valid message nonetheless.
    Last edited by Captain Adverse; 09-04-13 at 05:55 AM.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    Well, as I kept saying in other threads, Putin will not standby for a convenient vote from congress. See he is proactive and does not stand idle for western media to gain momentum and build for another airstrike. This is precaution.

    Fallacies in his statements are the usual emphasis on when airstrikes failed to back up peace, freedom, and democracy in Muslims states. See he only mentions countries where it did not fail but where it is still a struggle. He as the opposition to airstrikes mentions them as "failed" in this friendly manner appealing to logic and "common sense" to which he has the say on what "common sense" should mean.

    For one we are a Muslim country. Airstrikes worked here with the NATO intervention in 1999. We are free, peaceful, and we have democracy, and this fact should work against his list of "failed" attempts to free other such countries as well.

    But I was expecting more than this pre-emptive media strike from Putin. Thought he would start connecting the gas attack on civilians somehow with USA. That would have been more aggressive and more typical Russian IMO. But it appears he wants to win the opinions of allies as well as USA with this more subtle and casual stance on the matter, attempting to redo the Russian image in a global scale at the same time also.

    Media wars and the power of RT. I think CNN, BBC, and RTK (and others) should wise up and get out there and bring better quality data so as to counter the influence of RT. So far it is kicking butt!
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post


    I apologize in advance for the source. It's views are not necessarily my own. The main point here is Putin's message in the video the link contains. IJR simply happens to be the source where I came across it first.

    At first glance, I'll admit that Putin's arguments seem rather convincing. After all, he is a suave and pragmatic man, and he does happen to be possessed of a decidedly shrewd political mind. All of those qualities are on rather clear display above.

    However, given those qualities I have just enumerated, I suppose it should come as no surprise then that he also just so happens to be a skilled liar and brilliant spin artist. I frankly don't think I've ever seen a greater trove of blatant hypocrisy and historical revisionism than what he suggests above.

    For instance, I'm still having a hard time fathoming how he could possibly have the audacity to lecture the United States on any matter pertaining to civilian casualties.

    He certainly didn't care about such things in his invasion of Chechnya during the late 1990s. The conlfict is actually estimated to have killed over a quarter million civilians (most of them ethnic Russians living in Chechnya) over the course of its duration.

    I'd also venture so far as to say that the UN probably didn't declare the region's capital, Gronzy, to be the "most destroyed city on Earth" after being stormed by Russian forces back in 2003 for nothing.

    Attachment 67153079
    Attachment 67153080

    We could've launched "Shock and Awe" against Saddam Hussein's Iraq one hundred times over and still not reached anywhere near that level of wanton destructiveness, and any damage we could ever conceivably do in Syria doesn't even begin to compare with it either. No offense to Mr. Putin, but methinks he would be wise to avoid throwing bricks in glass houses.

    Furthermore, while his talk about going through the UN Security Council is all well and good, it also goes completely against his own track record.

    He's absolutely did not "wait" for any kind of UN approval before making the decision to invade Chechnya in 1999, or Georgia in 2008. As a matter of fact, the international community was quite distraught over Russia's behavior during both of those conflicts.

    Likewise, his claims that US intervention in the Middle East hasn't helped anything are off the mark as well. Our air campaign in Libya was quite successful, and managed to play a decisive role in toppling Gaddafi's regime without wracking up the outlandish costs demanded by a full scale invasion and occupation.

    Granted, the Benghazi attack was unfortunate. However, that appears to have been an isolated incident, and it wasn't even one which the majority of Libya's people supported.

    Libyans storm Ansar Al-Shariah compound in backlash after attack on US Consulate

    Aside from this incident, Libya has actually been comparatively stable since the civil war's end.

    The major meccas of civil unrest, violence, and disorder in the Middle East at the present moment are, as a matter of fact, Egypt and Syria; two nations in which the United States has so far made a point of avoiding direct military or political intervention entirely.

    In short, Putin's whole spiel here is basically hypocritical and counter-factual nonsense from beginning to end. It is "do as I say, not as I do" style propaganda specifically meant to appeal to the fear and uncertainty of war-weary Western populations.

    He doesn't give a damn about "harming innocents." He just wants to make sure that he doesn't lose one of his nation's most profitable military buyers.

    How many people do you think will be suckered in by his arguments anyway regardless?
    These are the dammnest lies possible. Use a subtle, calm, appealing tone, to convince and attract civility, while on the other hand butcher the civilians of the countries Russians want to influence upon.

    I hope we get a look at this critically for it is media wars. Each party tries to win the other sides opinions with media influence. I must agree that the appeal to civility is strong. To tell you the truth, it is so strong that between looking at this type of media back in 1999 and the fires committed from Serbs that were taking place outside for real, the media was so strong, that it even tented to persuade me that all was peaceful even then!

    Let us stop at this for a while. Fire burning houses near you, caused by Serbs whom you see burning houses, so this is real sensual data. Compared to a TV box and its peaceful claims with high ranking leaders telling you it is all well, logical, and "common sense," and the later wins over! Why?

    Perhaps because we, all of us are peaceful people. We do not want war even if it is already occurring. We may want to avoid it and would rather accept a peaceful lie than a required truthful ugly war.
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
    The Republic of Dardania is the proper name for: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe...ification.html

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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    From the source.

    The Kosovo campaign was also less tidily packaged at the time than it appears in retrospect. When the bombing began, NATO had not yet formulated its political conditions for halting the bombing. NATO nations hardened their views when the Serbs retaliated against the civilian population of Kosovo and neighboring Macedonia. These episodes are always fluid, but so long as your political coalition is well organized — and NATO was — objectives can be modified and clarified during the course of military action. Not every "I" has to be dotted or "t" crossed before initiating a strike.
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
    The Republic of Dardania is the proper name for: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe...ification.html

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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Gathomas88 View Post
    I simply found it to be absolutely mind boggling that Putin, of all people, would try and play "high and mighty" on the issue.

    He doesn't care one iota for any of the "innocents" in Syria. He's simply looking out for number one.
    I do not think the two of us could stress that enough even if we were to use speakers with high, wall crushing, volumes. We know these things from experience. But laypeople... I guess they should mind the actions rather than words?

    People, look at what is occurring (houses burned in Dardania's case, civilians murdered in Syria's case) to realize how deviant, sublime, and far reaching these lies are. One can attempt to copy the behaviors of leaders of a civilized world and seem this appealing, but what good is it if off the cameras they order manslaughter, torture, and other forms of mass murder?
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
    The Republic of Dardania is the proper name for: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe...ification.html

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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    My response is simply this...if you don't like the messenger simply superimpose the face of someone you'd find more appealing and still listen to the message.

    Everything he has stated is rational, reasonable, and responsible. Trying to undermine the message with fallacious comparisons simply because the messenger is a political opponent is disingenuous.

    If there is actual evidence then our duty is to reveal it. Claiming how it was obtained is a secret, therefore we can't show it demands we grant our government a level of trust it has yet to prove itself worthy of. Basically, our government lies to us ALL THE TIME!

    It is also true that the Syrian government has requested investigation of the incident, so why must we act militarily before such an investigation by NEUTRAL parties is concluded?

    Finally, it is also true that we will inevitably cause "collateral damage" among the civilian population. Strange that we'd think ourselves morally justified to cause such harm on the grounds that such harm has already been caused.

    It is irrelevent that the message comes from Putin, it is still a valid message nonetheless.


    Mornin CA. Not to mention he has the UN Secretary General in his corner on this one. Already stating this Military Action against Syria would be illegal. Nor do they prefer any military action. They want a political solution.

    Yet it was the Rebels from the get go that refused negotiations and stated there will be no Alawites in the Future of Syria.


    AP Interview: Putin warns West on Syria action
    AP Interview: Putin warns West on attacking Syria, wants 'convincing' evidence on poison gas.



    President Vladimir Putin warned the West against taking one-sided action in Syria but also said Russia "doesn't exclude" supporting a U.N. resolution on punitive military strikes if it is proved that Damascus used poison gas on its own people.

    In a wide-ranging interview with The Associated Press and Russia's state Channel 1 television, Putin said Moscow has provided some components of the S-300 air defense missile system to Syria but has frozen further shipments. He suggested that Russia may sell the potent missile systems elsewhere if Western nations attack Syria without U.N. Security Council backing.

    The interview Tuesday night at Putin's country residence outside the Russian capital was the only one he granted prior to the summit of G-20 nations in St. Petersburg, which opens Thursday. The summit was supposed to concentrate on the global economy but now looks likely to be dominated by the international crisis over allegations that the Syrian government used chemical weapons in the country's civil war.

    "President Obama hasn't been elected by the American people in order to be pleasant to Russia. And your humble servant hasn't been elected by the people of Russia to be pleasant to someone either," he said of their relationship.

    "We work, we argue about some issues. We are human. Sometimes one of us gets vexed. But I would like to repeat once again that global mutual interests form a good basis for finding a joint solution to our problems," Putin said.

    Putin said it was "ludicrous" that the government of President Bashar Assad — a staunch ally of Russia — would use chemical weapons at a time when it was holding sway against the rebels.

    "From our viewpoint, it seems absolutely absurd that the armed forces, the regular armed forces, which are on the offensive today and in some areas have encircled the so-called rebels and are finishing them off, that in these conditions they would start using forbidden chemical weapons while realizing quite well that it could serve as a pretext for applying sanctions against them, including the use of force," he said.....snip~

    AP Interview: Putin warns West on Syria action

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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    Mornin CA. Not to mention he has the UN Secretary General in his corner on this one. Already stating this Military Action against Syria would be illegal. Nor do they prefer any military action. They want a political solution.

    Yet it was the Rebels from the get go that refused negotiations and stated there will be no Alawites in the Future of Syria.


    AP Interview: Putin warns West on Syria action
    AP Interview: Putin warns West on attacking Syria, wants 'convincing' evidence on poison gas.



    President Vladimir Putin warned the West against taking one-sided action in Syria but also said Russia "doesn't exclude" supporting a U.N. resolution on punitive military strikes if it is proved that Damascus used poison gas on its own people.

    In a wide-ranging interview with The Associated Press and Russia's state Channel 1 television, Putin said Moscow has provided some components of the S-300 air defense missile system to Syria but has frozen further shipments. He suggested that Russia may sell the potent missile systems elsewhere if Western nations attack Syria without U.N. Security Council backing.

    The interview Tuesday night at Putin's country residence outside the Russian capital was the only one he granted prior to the summit of G-20 nations in St. Petersburg, which opens Thursday. The summit was supposed to concentrate on the global economy but now looks likely to be dominated by the international crisis over allegations that the Syrian government used chemical weapons in the country's civil war.

    "President Obama hasn't been elected by the American people in order to be pleasant to Russia. And your humble servant hasn't been elected by the people of Russia to be pleasant to someone either," he said of their relationship.

    "We work, we argue about some issues. We are human. Sometimes one of us gets vexed. But I would like to repeat once again that global mutual interests form a good basis for finding a joint solution to our problems," Putin said.

    Putin said it was "ludicrous" that the government of President Bashar Assad — a staunch ally of Russia — would use chemical weapons at a time when it was holding sway against the rebels.

    "From our viewpoint, it seems absolutely absurd that the armed forces, the regular armed forces, which are on the offensive today and in some areas have encircled the so-called rebels and are finishing them off, that in these conditions they would start using forbidden chemical weapons while realizing quite well that it could serve as a pretext for applying sanctions against them, including the use of force," he said.....snip~

    AP Interview: Putin warns West on Syria action
    Morning MMC. Yep, the Russians are taking a turn projecting the "diplomatic" solution these days. And what are our leaders doing? John Kerry calls people like us "armchair isolationists," a perversion of interventionist "armchair generals."

    Strange, after 2 years of ignoring Syria our government decides an attack on the Syrian government is now due because someone decided to call Obama's chemical weapons bluff...we don't know who but we are suddenly "highly confident" it was the Syrian government while finding it "highly unlikely" it was the rebels.

    Gee, I wonder who had more to gain from a chemical attack? The Syrian government who seem to be slowly winning with no desire to risk outside intervention, or the Syrian Rebels who know doing so would bring outside intervention and help them win their war?
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Morning MMC. Yep, the Russians are taking a turn projecting the "diplomatic" solution these days. And what are our leaders doing? John Kerry calls people like us "armchair isolationists," a perversion of interventionist "armchair generals."

    Strange, after 2 years of ignoring Syria our government decides an attack on the Syrian government is now due because someone decided to call Obama's chemical weapons bluff...we don't know who but we are suddenly "highly confident" it was the Syrian government while finding it "highly unlikely" it was the rebels.

    Gee, I wonder who had more to gain from a chemical attack? The Syrian government who seem to be slowly winning with no desire to risk outside intervention, or the Syrian Rebels who know doing so would bring outside intervention and help them win their war?


    I like the part where Putin points out how Assad had encircled some areas and was getting ready to finish the Rebels off. That can be validated by Satallite tracking. Now all of a sudden there is a time out. Course now Kerry and McCain are talking strategical sites to assist the rebels. A Special punishment for Assad and something to help the Rebels to get back into the game.

    Kerry has turned into a blithering idiot. It was just a matter of time. He has no business playing with the Big Boyz.

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    Re: Putin's Message to Obama

    Quote Originally Posted by MMC View Post
    I like the part where Putin points out how Assad had encircled some areas and was getting ready to finish the Rebels off. That can be validated by Satallite tracking. Now all of a sudden there is a time out. Course now Kerry and McCain are talking strategical sites to assist the rebels. A Special punishment for Assad and something to help the Rebels to get back into the game.

    Kerry has turned into a blithering idiot. It was just a matter of time. He has no business playing with the Big Boyz.
    What can be better to keep all else off of the front page? Obama, the Nobel Peace Prize guy, has invented the "mini war" plan where the U.S. unilaterally decides what needs to be blown up in a nation led by a "bad guy" by defing and enforcing "red line" laws in those nations. We are told that this "mini war" will last days, not weeks (whatever that means) and will not require boots on the ground. What is natrually left unsaid is what would happen if China or Russia also decided to define and enforce their own "red line" laws for other nations. Perhaps the Palestinians, Pakistan and Iran need to be told what their "red line" is. Naturally the military coup in Egypt crossed no such "red line", it only violates U.S. law to continue to send aid to them, so Obama (with congressional silence?) pretends that it did not really happen. The UN, which we spend way too much money on, surely seems usless in the "red line" age of Obama.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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