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Thread: Federal DHS Employee Instigating Race War!!!

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    Re: Federal DHS Employee Instigating Race War!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    One of the issues with all the various laws, cases, bargaining, etc over the years. Firing a federal employee outright is not an easy thing to do. And if you're wanting to get someone OFF the job while you begin the process of trying to put together a solid enough case to stand the scrutiny of law to actually get rid of someone OR at the very least sequester them off to a little empty room with nothing to do until they hopefully quit, then you have to pay them to go away because sending them home without pay is basically firing them.

    Watched it happen with regards to a sexual harassment case. The guy got put on admin leave for MONTHS as the investigation occured
    Kind of like the teachers' union.

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    Re: Federal DHS Employee Instigating Race War!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    You mean it's outrageous that the DHS didn't catch him sooner? That they were so incompetent?

    I'm so over that! DHS has been shown to be incompetent too many times for me to get excited by it

    Undercover TSA agent sneaks fake bomb in pants past Newark Airport security | NJ.com
    Your proof that DHS is incompetent is a link to an internal TSA testing process used to try and identify potential holes, issues, or problem employees to be able to fix issues? What you linked to is essentially continual quality control testing. This is like saying that Quality Assurence tests who find a bug in a video game prove that the gamers coders are "incompetent" rather than "when dealing with something that large there's going to be holes, so it's best to continually test for quality assurance to potentially address and fix as many as possible".

    If anything, it's a sign of DHS/TSA is an actual decently functioning entity that is constantly attempting to improve itself. While the fake bomb getting through is not a good thing and is a mark against those screeners, the fact it was discovered by a TSA team purposefully attempting to test the field, determine vulnerabilities, and find holes is a mark in TSA's favor of actually properly testing itself.

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    Re: Federal DHS Employee Instigating Race War!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Your proof that DHS is incompetent is a link to an internal TSA testing process used to try and identify potential holes, issues, or problem employees to be able to fix issues? What you linked to is essentially continual quality control testing. This is like saying that Quality Assurence tests who find a bug in a video game prove that the gamers coders are "incompetent" rather than "when dealing with something that large there's going to be holes, so it's best to continually test for quality assurance to potentially address and fix as many as possible".

    If anything, it's a sign of DHS/TSA is an actual decently functioning entity that is constantly attempting to improve itself. While the fake bomb getting through is not a good thing and is a mark against those screeners, the fact it was discovered by a TSA team purposefully attempting to test the field, determine vulnerabilities, and find holes is a mark in TSA's favor of actually properly testing itself.
    The fact that TSA runs tests is not a sign of incompetence

    The fact that 12 years after 9/11, the screeners didn't catch a bomb they should have is.
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    Re: Federal DHS Employee Instigating Race War!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Your proof that DHS is incompetent is a link to an internal TSA testing process used to try and identify potential holes, issues, or problem employees to be able to fix issues? What you linked to is essentially continual quality control testing. This is like saying that Quality Assurence tests who find a bug in a video game prove that the gamers coders are "incompetent" rather than "when dealing with something that large there's going to be holes, so it's best to continually test for quality assurance to potentially address and fix as many as possible".

    If anything, it's a sign of DHS/TSA is an actual decently functioning entity that is constantly attempting to improve itself. While the fake bomb getting through is not a good thing and is a mark against those screeners, the fact it was discovered by a TSA team purposefully attempting to test the field, determine vulnerabilities, and find holes is a mark in TSA's favor of actually properly testing itself.
    That's a good point, but wouldn't you feel a lot better if they had caught that? I know I would.

    I suppose, if you look at the big picture, there have been several thwarted attempts, but there is always room for improvement obviously.

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    Re: Federal DHS Employee Instigating Race War!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Your proof that DHS is incompetent is a link to an internal TSA testing process used to try and identify potential holes, issues, or problem employees to be able to fix issues? What you linked to is essentially continual quality control testing. This is like saying that Quality Assurence tests who find a bug in a video game prove that the gamers coders are "incompetent" rather than "when dealing with something that large there's going to be holes, so it's best to continually test for quality assurance to potentially address and fix as many as possible".

    If anything, it's a sign of DHS/TSA is an actual decently functioning entity that is constantly attempting to improve itself. While the fake bomb getting through is not a good thing and is a mark against those screeners, the fact it was discovered by a TSA team purposefully attempting to test the field, determine vulnerabilities, and find holes is a mark in TSA's favor of actually properly testing itself.
    I could do with a few less of these three letter alphebet agencies. Wait untill they get turned loose on our homeland with no restraints.

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    Re: Federal DHS Employee Instigating Race War!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    One of the issues with all the various laws, cases, bargaining, etc over the years. Firing a federal employee outright is not an easy thing to do. And if you're wanting to get someone OFF the job while you begin the process of trying to put together a solid enough case to stand the scrutiny of law to actually get rid of someone OR at the very least sequester them off to a little empty room with nothing to do until they hopefully quit, then you have to pay them to go away because sending them home without pay is basically firing them.

    Watched it happen with regards to a sexual harassment case. The guy got put on admin leave for MONTHS as the investigation occured
    This is true, by why send them home on salary? Why not send them to the mailroom or the cafeteria to do something productive while they're still getting paid?
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Federal DHS Employee Instigating Race War!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    The fact that TSA runs tests is not a sign of incompetence

    The fact that 12 years after 9/11, the screeners didn't catch a bomb they should have is.
    That's a rather ignorant method of thinking if you're chalking up "incompetence" as the default answer thinking there can't be other factors.

    TSO's have a RIDICULOUSLY high turnover rate, especially at your bigger Cat X airports. The pay is in the mid 20 range if you're full time, the public isn't always the easiest to work with and when it comes to the baggage side of things the conditions aren't always exactly great, and its kind of a thankless job. Some of those things factor into 1) the quality of individual you get applying for those jobs 2) the amount of time people actually stay in the job.

    The amount of individuals who have actually been TSO's for the "12 years after 9/11" that we are is ridiculously low. There's a greater chance that the TSO's scanning those individuals are on their first 6 months on the job then there is that they're on their 6th year...let alone 12 years. With a workforce that size and with significant turnover and that pay level you're going to be having new people on all the time...and to expect perfection or "12 years" worth of expertise from each and every one is ludicrous. Chalking up the fact that they don't perform at that level to "incompetence" is even more ridiculous.

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    Re: Federal DHS Employee Instigating Race War!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisL View Post
    That's a good point, but wouldn't you feel a lot better if they had caught that? I know I would.
    I don't particularly feel any way about it, because I use some general common sense.

    "TSA agents catches practice bomb at airport" is hardly a headline story you're going to be seeing.

    As with all quality assurance testing, the reality is that they probably have caught a LOT more than they've missed...but those aren't going to be reported.

    In a general sense would I feel better if TSO's caught every tester bag? Absolutely. I'd then begin to question if I'm still alive because I'd have suddenly entered into a world where there are perfect humans present.

    I suppose, if you look at the big picture, there have been several thwarted attempts, but there is always room for improvement obviously.
    Oh, absolutely! By no means is TSA or its practices perfect. Far from it. But there's a gigatnic difference between suggesting that a group can still improve and get better and suggesting that it's just rife with incompetence.

    Incompetence to me would be not bothering to test these things at all and having some actual live ones getting through and causing problems. That would be an indication that they're not testing examples based on intel to see how they may be caught or missed, that they're not looking for potential holes, that they're not keeping the workforce on their toes or identifying potential weak employees, etc.

    This isn't incompetence to me. It's an example of parts of the outfit that needs to continue to improve as well as an example of parts of the outfit that is doing a refreshingly useful job.

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    Re: Federal DHS Employee Instigating Race War!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    This is true, by why send them home on salary? Why not send them to the mailroom or the cafeteria to do something productive while they're still getting paid?
    I agree with the sentiment, but let me try to step outside the box a bit of my own general view point and try to take a stab at answering from the realities of the federal world...

    First, not every office place has a mail room or cafeteria or some such place you can easily just shuffle the person to. Additionally, when an active investigation is going on, sometimes the need is for that person NOT to be present for the investigation to actually function right. The person still being in the workplace can make other employees that need to be questioned perhaps feel less apt to speak truthfully. Or that person still being there while clearly under investigation can simply help foster a negative atmosphere and moral as they begin to spread their gripes all through the office. Additionally, IF you're giving them work that actually NEEDS to be done then you're essentially taking someone elses jobs and duties and giving it to this other person which can cause some problems in a whole variety of ways. Not to mention, if it NEEDS to get done then it sets up a way for that person to continue to cause trouble as they'd hardly be a motivated party. If you just gave them busy work, then you run into an issue of oversight in terms of waste of tax payers money. "Now that's foolish" you say, becuase we're wasting their money by sending them home...and yet, having them do "work" that isn't actually "work" cause bring rise to waste/fraud/abuse type issues as strange as it may sound.

    Rationally, you'd say you'd want to send the person home without pay and go about everything because then nothings being harmed. But there's too many limitations on the feds to be able to do that. As such, strangely enough, during the investigation typically the least amount of harm and potential harm is done by keeping them AWAY even if you have to pay them.

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    Re: Federal DHS Employee Instigating Race War!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I agree with the sentiment, but let me try to step outside the box a bit of my own general view point and try to take a stab at answering from the realities of the federal world...

    First, not every office place has a mail room or cafeteria or some such place you can easily just shuffle the person to. Additionally, when an active investigation is going on, sometimes the need is for that person NOT to be present for the investigation to actually function right. The person still being in the workplace can make other employees that need to be questioned perhaps feel less apt to speak truthfully. Or that person still being there while clearly under investigation can simply help foster a negative atmosphere and moral as they begin to spread their gripes all through the office. Additionally, IF you're giving them work that actually NEEDS to be done then you're essentially taking someone elses jobs and duties and giving it to this other person which can cause some problems in a whole variety of ways. Not to mention, if it NEEDS to get done then it sets up a way for that person to continue to cause trouble as they'd hardly be a motivated party. If you just gave them busy work, then you run into an issue of oversight in terms of waste of tax payers money. "Now that's foolish" you say, becuase we're wasting their money by sending them home...and yet, having them do "work" that isn't actually "work" cause bring rise to waste/fraud/abuse type issues as strange as it may sound.

    Rationally, you'd say you'd want to send the person home without pay and go about everything because then nothings being harmed. But there's too many limitations on the feds to be able to do that. As such, strangely enough, during the investigation typically the least amount of harm and potential harm is done by keeping them AWAY even if you have to pay them.
    Two points:

    Firstly, I have no problem with a suspended employee being paid while a determination is being made about whether or not they did something sufficiently serious to lose their employment.

    Secondly, I worked in education where we occasionally had teachers accused of misconduct and we always took them out of a school and placed them in an administrative office until the matter was investigated or adjudicated. The federal government is VAST and I refuse to believe that there is no productive function in another environment that this person can't be assigned while his status is being determined - shouldn't take long either, considering the facts as outlined, but then appeals can be time consuming.

    Even police here, when accused of wrongdoing, are assigned other duties and rarely sent home on "paid leave". A bureaucrat sitting at a desk is not in a unique position where he can't do something else.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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