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Thread: who killed these babies ?

  1. #11
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    Re: who killed these babies ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaudreaux View Post
    We all did.

    By participating in religious wars since the Crusades, agitating sectarian violence for millennia, feeding into secular schisms, and it hasn't changed much since the 11th Century and before. Some parts of the world like the US, have progressed, but other areas of the world haven't changed much since the 7th Century when Muhammad was alive.

    Secular violence has killed more humans than any other disease in the history of the world. Even the Black Plague was a mild head cold compared to killing that takes place in the name of God.

    Why did I say we all did? Because some feel that what happens in some other part of the world is not our problem. On the other hand, some think that it's our destiny to take our religion (democracy and capitalism in some cases, or a different religion of God in others) to everyone around the world. We have a responsibility to protect the vulnerable, not just here in our own country, but elsewhere as well. We did so in the Balkans, and those we protected were Muslims, so their religion wasn't a factor to us, although that's why they were being exterminated. We did so in Europe in WWII, where religion was also the reason for the genocide, but religion wasn't the reason we got involved. But we tend to look the other way lately when it's politically incorrect however, especially if there's oil involved, or it could effect our oil supply.

    This particular example of genocide is a little different than what we've seen on the past from a geopolitical standpoint, but the fact that it could inflame the Middle East and effect our oil supply makes it a hot potato. The fact that Russia and China have opposed any intervention has also scared, yes scared our politicians in power. But the horror is no less real, and our responsibility to protect the vulnerable is no less relieved.

    Sitting back and watching is not what we as a capable group in the human race should do. Making blustery statements about red-lines and then doing nothing isn't either. Using the excuse of having to get approval from the UN, which cannot agree on much of anything, and Russia or China could veto any resolution, isn't either. Getting a coalition together of like minded nations is a good idea, but it should not be a 'go/no go' line we have to cross before we take action to protect these babies.

    A strategy of actions that can progressively escalate when and if required, such as what President Obama is reportedly looking into now, is exactly what we should be doing. Do I like it? No. Does that mean I will not support the President if he makes the decision and gives the order? Of course not. Most things that are worth doing are hard, and uncomfortable. And the choice to use force to protect the vulnerable is no different.

    We should still stand for something in this world. Not expansion of our power and control, but standing for human rights and protection of the vulnerable. We should protect our economic interest around the world as well, but protecting the least among us from genocide shouldn't even be considered a debatable political choice. There is no choice, because the alternative to action is to be complicit in the murder of these children and those that follow, and that... is an unthinkable result, and is a thought I would not want to live with if I were the President.
    Bull****. I had nothing to do with it. I remember when we helped in the wake of the earthquake in Haitii, we were accused of "occupying" it. We'll be bashed whatever we do or don't do and I'm pretty tired of it myself.

  2. #12
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    Re: who killed these babies ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaudreaux View Post
    You've brought up an uncomfortable truth regarding Iraq's WMD. And you're correct to bring it up.
    -----------------
    Why would Syria bother to import Iraq's crap?
    Poison gas is pretty simple to manufacture.
    No matter how cynical I become toward politicians, it's never enough.

  3. #13
    feckless bon vivant

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    Re: who killed these babies ?

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Bull****. I had nothing to do with it. I remember when we helped in the wake of the earthquake in Haitii, we were accused of "occupying" it. We'll be bashed whatever we do or don't do and I'm pretty tired of it myself.
    ---------------

    I share your disgust.
    No matter how cynical I become toward politicians, it's never enough.

  4. #14
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    Re: who killed these babies ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    Okay, we see a terrible thing. I am totally down for humanitarian aid including food, medical supplies and medical treatment as long as both parties to the conflict allow us to fly in and fly out. Other than that, it is not our business. We are not the World's Policeman.
    I agree regarding humanitarian aid. We are members of the human race, and cannot just sit by and allow genocide to take place although giving them rice, flour and water will not stop the killing.

    And I agree that we are not the world's policeman. And involving ourselves in internal strife of other countries, like what's happening in Egypt right now, is not what we should be involving ourselves in directly, especially militarily. Genocide, on the other hand, should be something that we should never allow ourselves to just stand by and say it is not our concern. I'm far from a bleeding heart liberal, but I cannot approve of our allowing this type of government organized mass murder to stand unopposed.

    Being a combat veteran, and one that still caries the physical and mental scares of that combat, I am one of the most reluctant to approve of the use of military force. But there comes a time, when the alternative is an unthinkable horror.

  5. #15
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    Re: who killed these babies ?

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Bull****. I had nothing to do with it. I remember when we helped in the wake of the earthquake in Haitii, we were accused of "occupying" it. We'll be bashed whatever we do or don't do and I'm pretty tired of it myself.
    Then pick up a weapon, go over there and start shooting babies. Because your apathy has the same result. I would rather be part of a nation that saves lives, like in Haiti, rather than one that condones genocide, like in Syria, because I'm concerned someone may not like it, or I have better things to do like play video games or pontificate on an internet forum.

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    Re: who killed these babies ?

    Quote Originally Posted by radioman View Post
    -----------------
    Why would Syria bother to import Iraq's crap?
    Poison gas is pretty simple to manufacture.
    Poison Gas isn't the only thing Saddam took there. Syria didn't import it. They hid it for Saddam, and helped spread it across the region, where some of it ended up in Libya, as was found by a CNN news team.

  7. #17
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    Re: who killed these babies ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaudreaux View Post
    I agree regarding humanitarian aid. We are members of the human race, and cannot just sit by and allow genocide to take place although giving them rice, flour and water will not stop the killing.

    And I agree that we are not the world's policeman. And involving ourselves in internal strife of other countries, like what's happening in Egypt right now, is not what we should be involving ourselves in directly, especially militarily. Genocide, on the other hand, should be something that we should never allow ourselves to just stand by and say it is not our concern. I'm far from a bleeding heart liberal, but I cannot approve of our allowing this type of government organized mass murder to stand unopposed.

    Being a combat veteran, and one that still caries the physical and mental scares of that combat, I am one of the most reluctant to approve of the use of military force. But there comes a time, when the alternative is an unthinkable horror.
    I can respect your opinion without agreeing with it. Each society is responsible for it's own internal affairs without hindrance. Your appeal to emotion would have us involved in conflicts all over the world, and even where we won we'd need to stay in place a significant period of time in order to "rebuild" their civil affairs. That is not our job.

    If we see genocide we can offer sanctuary to refugees, we can boycott and take other political and economic measures against the offending government. IMO we should NOT intervene militarily.
    If I stop responding it doesn't mean I've conceded the point or agree with you. It only means I've made my point and I don't mind you having the last word. Please wait a few minutes before "quoting" me. I often correct errors for a minute or two after I post before the final product is ready.

  8. #18
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    Re: who killed these babies ?

    Quote Originally Posted by radioman View Post
    -----------------
    Why would Syria bother to import Iraq's crap?
    Poison gas is pretty simple to manufacture.
    Saddamn needed a hiding place.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  9. #19
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    Re: who killed these babies ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    I can respect your opinion without agreeing with it. Each society is responsible for it's own internal affairs without hindrance. Your appeal to emotion would have us involved in conflicts all over the world, and even where we won we'd need to stay in place a significant period of time in order to "rebuild" their civil affairs. That is not our job.

    If we see genocide we can offer sanctuary to refugees, we can boycott and take other political and economic measures against the offending government. IMO we should NOT intervene militarily.
    That al depends. If there's a vettable "good guy", then we should become involved. In the case of Syria, we would be helping the bad guys, no matter who we sided with.

    Personally, I believe that if we did become involved, I would like to see us target government AND rebel units.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  10. #20
    feckless bon vivant

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    Re: who killed these babies ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaudreaux View Post
    Poison Gas isn't the only thing Saddam took there. Syria didn't import it. They hid it for Saddam, and helped spread it across the region, where some of it ended up in Libya, as was found by a CNN news team.
    -------------
    Is that right?
    Since poison gas is easily manufactured, how would anyone know it originated in Iraq?
    I'm really not trying to be difficult here, but poison gas can be made by anyone.
    No matter how cynical I become toward politicians, it's never enough.

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