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IRS faces lawsuit for failing to enforce church electioneering ban

apdst said:
This won't go far, after a lot of black churches get slammed.
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Ah - the race attack - how novel.

Gee, do you think the Alliance Defense Fund has many black members?
Pulpit Freedom Sunday -- which is scheduled for the last Sunday of September/first Sunday in October -- is the day when right wing fundy bat**** crazy American pastors decide to flout their churches' tax-exempt status by making political speeches during their Sunday services, despite the fact that the Bible repeatedly commands Christians to obey secular law. The first Pulpit Freedom Sunday occurred on 28 September 2008, when it looked more and more likely that One Of Those People was about to win the presidency.

Pulpit Freedom Sunday is the brainchild of the Alliance Defense Fund, a "family values" group founded in 1994 to combat the ACLU.
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and just to stop any attempted reply along the lines of "What should we expect from the socialist, he only promotes race war anyway" I would fully support pulling the tax exemption from any traditionally black church which acted in the same manner as the rightwing white churches.
 
Somerville said:
Religious institutions in America appear to be receiving somewhere in the neighbourhood of $70,000,000,000.00 worth of tax exemptions annually.
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LOL.

Everybody in America gets a tax exemption of some sort if not many sorts.

So the taxpayers pay how many bills for these church groups? What, what's that? Yes, of course. Zero. They pay their own bills.
These church groups get how much cash from the government? What, what's that? Yes, of course. Zero. They pay their own bills.

It doesn't really matter to me if these church groups are tax exempt or not. But it does matter to a lot of people, especially those that get help from a church. I realize nowadays those that believe in the religion of government have little to no use for church going type people but they are not going to go away. If I ever needed help for anything and couldn't get it from family or friends, I would go to a church group long before I'd go to the government. I might actually get help from somebody at a church, the government, not so much, just a sustainability plan for a life full of misery.

Am I the only one that bothered to read the disclaimers in the article? The authors made it clear they were not experts in any way on this subject and in fact, couldn't get all that many facts. So I wonder what their motivation really was, maybe it was honest but I have a lot of doubt about that.
 
ItAin'tFree said:
Do you have any factual numbers from the federal budget on how much money you or other taxpayers "subsidize" these churches?

I didn't think so. Church members pay their bills, not you or other taxpayers.
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Whoosh, right over your head!

Churches are exempt from taxation. Focus, focus.
 
apdst said:
This won't go far, after a lot of black churches get slammed.
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I'm sure that's your hope; but in fact traditional black churches have always been scrupulous in not endorsing candidates. They simply preach the gospel of love and tolerance, which doesn't accord with conservative hate and scapegoating.

The people to look out are the rightwing fundies. They are endorsing rightwing loons all the time. They need to be taught a lesson with a nice big tax bill for all their ill gotten gains.
 
head of joaquin said:
Whoosh, right over your head!

Churches are exempt from taxation. Focus, focus.
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Not a chance.

My use of the definition of the word "subsidize" is completely consistent with the true meaning of the word. Don't take my word for it, look it up. Using tax exemptions as "subsidize" is technically correct but when used as played off against taxpayers is a bit misleading. Tax exemptions doesn't mean the same as payments as the churches are not seeking cash from Uncle Sugar to operate. They want tax breaks like just about every other type business in America gets.
 
ItAin'tFree said:
LOL.

Everybody in America gets a tax exemption of some sort if not many sorts.

So the taxpayers pay how many bills for these church groups? What, what's that? Yes, of course. Zero. They pay their own bills.
These church groups get how much cash from the government? What, what's that? Yes, of course. Zero. They pay their own bills.
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They pay their own bills? Churches pay for their own fire protection, police, roads and bridges, schools for their children? - although some churches are actually receiving taxpayer funding to support their own little church schools

It doesn't really matter to me if these church groups are tax exempt or not. But it does matter to a lot of people, especially those that get help from a church.
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Oh yeah, some churches do help people. like the Mormons, who according to the article have spent something like 0.1% on charity, though there are others like the United Methodist Church which has averaged 29% of their funding going to charitable actions. Overall, American churches spend about one fourth of their income on charity.

Am I the only one that bothered to read the disclaimers in the article?
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No, you are not. did you also read the bit about the difficulty of obtaining data because so many churches don't release spending information to the public? Could it be that SOME churches don't want their members to know about the mansions, private jets and vacations their ministers are enjoying on church funds?

Preachers of LA' Trailer Teases With Lavish, Dramatic Lifestyles of Six Mega-Pastors
 
head of joaquin said:
I'm sure that's your hope; but in fact traditional black churches have always been scrupulous in not endorsing candidates. They simply preach the gospel of love and tolerance, which doesn't accord with conservative hate and scapegoating.

The people to look out are the rightwing fundies. They are endorsing rightwing loons all the time. They need to be taught a lesson with a nice big tax bill for all their ill gotten gains.
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I didn't day all black churches. Hell, I didn't even say most.
What the hell, Im sure black churches will be exempted.
 
Somerville said:
Ah - the race attack - how novel.

Gee, do you think the Alliance Defense Fund has many black members?


and just to stop any attempted reply along the lines of "What should we expect from the socialist, he only promotes race war anyway" I would fully support pulling the tax exemption from any traditionally black church which acted in the same manner as the rightwing white churches.
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Yeah, U bet you would.
 
Somerville said:
They pay their own bills? Churches pay for their own fire protection, police, roads and bridges, schools for their children? - although some churches are actually receiving taxpayer funding to support their own little church schools

Oh yeah, some churches do help people. like the Mormons, who according to the article have spent something like 0.1% on charity, though there are others like the United Methodist Church which has averaged 29% of their funding going to charitable actions. Overall, American churches spend about one fourth of their income on charity.

No, you are not. did you also read the bit about the difficulty of obtaining data because so many churches don't release spending information to the public? Could it be that SOME churches don't want their members to know about the mansions, private jets and vacations their ministers are enjoying on church funds?

Preachers of LA' Trailer Teases With Lavish, Dramatic Lifestyles of Six Mega-Pastors
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Of course they pay their own bills. Lets see, if the church bus fills up with gas the gas tax gets paid so there your roads and bridges. Most fire and police protection comes from property tax so whatever the local community taxes the church at, they pay what they owe. Churches don't have children, their members do. Why would the church owe a school tax (unless it was part of a property tax)? Plus lets not even pretend like churches are not involved in fund raising activities for the said type organizations donating both time and money to those very causes.

You sure do worry about what a church does with it's own money. Why is that? It's obvious you want nothing to do with a church so why not mind your business and leave theirs to them? Plus lets not lose sight of the fact that the people that wrote the article were at least honest enough to admit they could not get enough data to tell how much money a church had or what they did with it.

Churches are under no more obligation to release their financial information to the public than you are. Could it be that you don't want other people to know all about your business or how you spend your money?
 
apdst said:
Yeah, U bet you would.
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Why wouldn't I support such a penalty for a traditionally black church? I'm an atheist, I don't think any religious group should be getting tax exemptions but I will accept a law which says a church, a temple, a mosque or a synagogue received tax exemptions but I do not think that any profit-seeking business owned by a religious group should be given any such exemptions. I do not think preachers, priests, imams or rabbis should have exemptions on the benefits provided by their religion.

So believe what you wish but that don't mean it means the requirements of reality.
 
ItAin'tFree said:
Of course they pay their own bills. Lets see, if the church bus fills up with gas the gas tax gets paid so there your roads and bridges. Most fire and police protection comes from property tax so whatever the local community taxes the church at, they pay what they owe. Churches don't have children, their members do. Why would the church owe a school tax (unless it was part of a property tax)? Plus lets not even pretend like churches are not involved in fund raising activities for the said type organizations donating both time and money to those very causes.

You sure do worry about what a church does with it's own money. Why is that? It's obvious you want nothing to do with a church so why not mind your business and leave theirs to them? Plus lets not lose sight of the fact that the people that wrote the article were at least honest enough to admit they could not get enough data to tell how much money a church had or what they did with it.

Churches are under no more obligation to release their financial information to the public than you are. Could it be that you don't want other people to know all about your business or how you spend your money?
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Churches and other religious groups are NOT paying property taxes.

I don't get the same exemptions as are provided to religious groups so the comparison is invalid. I do notice that you haven't actually answered some of the earlier questions so . . .
 
Somerville said:
Churches and other religious groups are NOT paying property taxes.

I don't get the same exemptions as are provided to religious groups so the comparison is invalid. I do notice that you haven't actually answered some of the earlier questions so . . .
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Churches pay the property taxes they owe, just as I said. To imply they are not paying any property tax is a complete falsehood. If they have investment property, they pay property tax on such.

No you don't get the same exemptions as a church. You also don't get the same exemptions as a farmer, a start up business, car manufacture. railroad, red cross, person with 16 kids, or most likely even your next door neighbor.

I answered your "questions" that were really hit statements. Everybody gets it. You are a miserable person who has no use for any church. But that's your business. A churches business is theirs.
 
ItAin'tFree said:
Churches pay the property taxes they owe, just as I said. To imply they are not paying any property tax is a complete falsehood. If they have investment property, they pay property tax on such.

No you don't get the same exemptions as a church. You also don't get the same exemptions as a farmer, a start up business, car manufacture. railroad, red cross, person with 16 kids, or most likely even your next door neighbor.

I answered your "questions" that were really hit statements. Everybody gets it. You are a miserable person who has no use for any church. But that's your business. A churches business is theirs.
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When one argues for a specific viewpoint, it helps to have reality on your side. Some do and some don't, ItAin'tFree

On May 4, 1970, the US Supreme Court upheld property tax exemptions for churches, declaring them to be in accordance with the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment of the US Constitution. In the majority opinion written by Chief Justice Warren E. Burger in Walz v. Tax Commission of the City of New York, the Court stated in its 8-1 decision that the exemptions did not equate with "the 'establishment' of a religion [that] connoted sponsorship, financial support, and active involvement of the sovereign in religious activity," all of which are prohibited
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Now this one should upset a few folks who are convinced that President Obama is really a secret Muslim intent on establishing shariah law in this country. It sure as hell pisses me off
Faith-Based Debate: Obama Signs Order on Funds for Churches

When President George W. Bush authorized federally-funded partnerships between the government and faith-based groups nearly a decade ago, he opened a new chapter in the debate over separation of church and state.

Bush's so-called faith-based initiative green-lighted taxpayer dollars to local churches and other religious organizations to help them expand their social services in local communities. It's an arrangement President Obama supports as well.
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ItAin'tFree said:
Of course they pay their own bills. Lets see, if the church bus fills up with gas the gas tax gets paid so there your roads and bridges. Most fire and police protection comes from property tax so whatever the local community taxes the church at, they pay what they owe. Churches don't have children, their members do. Why would the church owe a school tax (unless it was part of a property tax)? Plus lets not even pretend like churches are not involved in fund raising activities for the said type organizations donating both time and money to those very causes.

You sure do worry about what a church does with it's own money. Why is that? It's obvious you want nothing to do with a church so why not mind your business and leave theirs to them? Plus lets not lose sight of the fact that the people that wrote the article were at least honest enough to admit they could not get enough data to tell how much money a church had or what they did with it.

Churches are under no more obligation to release their financial information to the public than you are. Could it be that you don't want other people to know all about your business or how you spend your money?
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That's fine if they don't want to pay taxes. THEN THEY NEED TO FOLLOW THE LAW AND NOT ENDORSE CANDIDATES, EVEN BY TRYING TO SNEAK THE INFO INTO THEIR SERMONS.

They get the tax break because they don't get involved with politics. They need to follow the law, or they need to pay taxes.
 
Churches shouldn't be tax exempt period. To think, they wouldn't be getting sued now.
 
After all the talk about separation of church and state, I think I'd prefer a separation of church and politics.
 
Somerville said:
When one argues for a specific viewpoint, it helps to have reality on your side. Some do and some don't, ItAin'tFree



Now this one should upset a few folks who are convinced that President Obama is really a secret Muslim intent on establishing shariah law in this country. It sure as hell pisses me off
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It really does help "to have reality on your side" when one argues a specific viewpoint. You made a false claim that churches don't pay property taxes. That is just not so. While most of their properties may receive an exemption, churches do pay property taxes. Just as I have said all along. Here is some of what is written in California board of Equalization Publication Form 48:"PROPERTY THAT DOES NOT QUALIFY FOR ANY EXEMPTION
Contrary to common belief, some property owned by religious organizations does not qualify for any property tax exemption Typical examples are explained below
Vacant, unused, or excess property
Property that is vacant, unused, or excess on the January 1 property tax lien date is not eligible for exemption for the following reasons:• Revenue and Taxation Code section 206 requires exclusive use of property for religious worship purposes.• Revenue and Taxation Code section 207 requires exclusive use of property for religious worship and school activities.• Revenue and Taxation Code section 214, subdivision (a) requires exclusive use of property for the organization’s exempt purpose Section 214, subdivision (a)(3) requires use of the property for the actual operation of an exempt activity.The intent to use the property at a later date does not make the property eligible The assessor cannot allow an exemption until the January 1 lien date after a qualifying use begins In this context, “excess property” is property in excess of what your organization reasonably needs or is using for your exempt purposes and activities"


And that's just some of it and that's just from one state. Churches always have and always will pay the property tax they owe. They do not get a 100% across the board exemption on property tax as people trying to spread there spite against religion would like others to believe.


If you want Freedom From Religion, I'd suggest forming your own country somewhere. Because I don't know where in the world you would find such a location.
 
ItAin'tFree said:
It really does help "to have reality on your side" when one argues a specific viewpoint. You made a false claim that churches don't pay property taxes. That is just not so. While most of their properties may receive an exemption, churches do pay property taxes. Just as I have said all along. Here is some of what is written in California board of Equalization Publication Form 48:"PROPERTY THAT DOES NOT QUALIFY FOR ANY EXEMPTION
Contrary to common belief, some property owned by religious organizations does not qualify for any property tax exemption Typical examples are explained below
Vacant, unused, or excess property
Property that is vacant, unused, or excess on the January 1 property tax lien date is not eligible for exemption for the following reasons:• Revenue and Taxation Code section 206 requires exclusive use of property for religious worship purposes.• Revenue and Taxation Code section 207 requires exclusive use of property for religious worship and school activities.• Revenue and Taxation Code section 214, subdivision (a) requires exclusive use of property for the organization’s exempt purpose Section 214, subdivision (a)(3) requires use of the property for the actual operation of an exempt activity.The intent to use the property at a later date does not make the property eligible The assessor cannot allow an exemption until the January 1 lien date after a qualifying use begins In this context, “excess property” is property in excess of what your organization reasonably needs or is using for your exempt purposes and activities"


And that's just some of it and that's just from one state. Churches always have and always will pay the property tax they owe. They do not get a 100% across the board exemption on property tax as people trying to spread there spite against religion would like others to believe.


If you want Freedom From Religion, I'd suggest forming your own country somewhere. Because I don't know where in the world you would find such a location.
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At least you are beginning to add qualifications to your earlier statement. How many churches own business/investment properties? How many churches claim religious use for properties that actually provide business income.

Citing law from California, that known librul cesspool, means nothing about the tax laws in other states.

Buried deep in Texas law regulating tax exemptions is a nice out for churches and preachers
For the purposes of this section, "religious worship" means individual or group ceremony or meditation, education, and fellowship, the purpose of which is to manifest or develop reverence, homage, and commitment in behalf of a religious faith.
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apdst said:
Yeah, U bet you would.
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You only want white churches to get tax exemptions. Because I said so.

We're doing this thing again, right? This thing where we get to decide what other people believe? Because I know how much you love that.
 
Somerville said:
At least you are beginning to add qualifications to your earlier statement. How many churches own business/investment properties? How many churches claim religious use for properties that actually provide business income.

Citing law from California, that known librul cesspool, means nothing about the tax laws in other states.

Buried deep in Texas law regulating tax exemptions is a nice out for churches and preachers
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No, come on now. Don't twist my words, twist yours. As I have said all along, Churches pay property taxes. No qualifications to that. Do your own research as to how many churches own business/investment properties or property that doesn't meet the exemption requirements. But you won't find what you are looking for in spiteful articles designed to make people not capable of thought think that churches get an advantage that others don't.

You did get something right though about California and it's laws not applying to other states. But you can check out, at you own pace, the other 49. You will find something similar in them.
 
ItAin'tFree said:
No, come on now. Don't twist my words, twist yours. As I have said all along, Churches pay property taxes. No qualifications to that. Do your own research as to how many churches own business/investment properties or property that doesn't meet the exemption requirements. But you won't find what you are looking for in spiteful articles designed to make people not capable of thought think that churches get an advantage that others don't.

You did get something right though about California and it's laws not applying to other states. But you can check out, at you own pace, the other 49. You will find something similar in them.
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and nothing about that little bit found in Texas law - Gee, I wonder why
 
Somerville said:
and nothing about that little bit found in Texas law - Gee, I wonder why
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Well, I don't know. But when it comes to churches paying property taxes in Texas here is what it says (from the article you linked):
"(a) An organization that qualifies as a religious organization as provided by Subsection (c) is entitled to an exemption from taxation of:

(1) the real property that is owned by the religious organization, is used primarily as a place of regular religious worship, and is reasonably necessary for engaging in religious worship;

(2) the tangible personal property that is owned by the religious organization and is reasonably necessary for engaging in worship at the place of worship specified in Subdivision (1);

(3) the real property that is owned by the religious organization and is reasonably necessary for use as a residence (but not more than one acre of land for each residence) if the property:

(A) is used exclusively as a residence for those individuals whose principal occupation is to serve in the clergy of the religious organization; and

(B) produces no revenue for the religious organization;"


So once again, churches are only exempted from paying property tax under certain restricted conditions. I gave you an example in California, you supported what I have said from the start, with your example of Texas. Everybody gets that you have no use for religion. That's up to you.
 
ItAin'tFree said:
Well, I don't know. But when it comes to churches paying property taxes in Texas here is what it says (from the article you linked):
"(a) An organization that qualifies as a religious organization as provided by Subsection (c) is entitled to an exemption from taxation of:

(1) the real property that is owned by the religious organization, is used primarily as a place of regular religious worship, and is reasonably necessary for engaging in religious worship;

(2) the tangible personal property that is owned by the religious organization and is reasonably necessary for engaging in worship at the place of worship specified in Subdivision (1);

(3) the real property that is owned by the religious organization and is reasonably necessary for use as a residence (but not more than one acre of land for each residence) if the property:

(A) is used exclusively as a residence for those individuals whose principal occupation is to serve in the clergy of the religious organization; and

(B) produces no revenue for the religious organization;"


So once again, churches are only exempted from paying property tax under certain restricted conditions. I gave you an example in California, you supported what I have said from the start, with your example of Texas. Everybody gets that you have no use for religion. That's up to you.
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OK, maybe the bolded word wasn't big enough for you to read - here is the section from the Texas law covering religious organisation exemptions
For the purposes of this section, "religious worship" means individual or group ceremony or meditation, education, and fellowship, the purpose of which is to manifest or develop reverence, homage, and commitment in behalf of a religious faith.
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So all the preacher has to do is hold a "ceremony or meditation, education and fellowship" on the property all by his little self or with just his family members and the property is tax exempt.
 
Somerville said:
OK, maybe the bolded word wasn't big enough for you to read - here is the section from the Texas law covering religious organisation exemptions


So all the preacher has to do is hold a "ceremony or meditation, education and fellowship" on the property all by his little self or with just his family members and the property is tax exempt.
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What's your point? People should not be allowed to pray, alone? The way you hate religion, I would have thought that's the way you would have preferred it. Guess I would have been wrong on that one.

I'm not aware of any religion that requires group worship, are you? Other than those that worship government of course, and it gets property tax exemptions by the way.
 
ItAin'tFree said:
What's your point? People should not be allowed to pray, alone? The way you hate religion, I would have thought that's the way you would have preferred it. Guess I would have been wrong on that one.

I'm not aware of any religion that requires group worship, are you? Other than those that worship government of course, and it gets property tax exemptions by the way.
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WOW! You aren't even making an attempt to refute what I posted. Don't you get it? YOU make a claim that religious organisations must pay property taxes, I point to a SCOTUS decision that says otherwise. YOU correct me by quoting California's law on property tax. I then paste in a paragraph from Texas legal code that says all the preacher man has to do is pray on the property and it becomes tax exempt. YOU then ask, "What's your point?" !!!

A fine example as to why some conversations go nowhere.
 
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