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Thread: UK judge OKs sterilisation of man with mental age of six year old

  1. #131
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    Re: UK judge OKs sterilisation of man with mental age of six year old

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    Even sloths and snails breed. Interesting you have enough cajones to deny this couple procreation. I think the human race can do better than that and society can help raise a kid or 2 of this guys if his parents arent willing. How many couples say "we wherent planning on having a baby! It just happened!" Then it happens to 2 retarded people and everyone makes a huge fuss.
    So really - you're in disagreement with the court, and with the family whose already supporting adult #1 and adult #2 as well as child #1. . . you feel they should be allowed to have sex whenever and have however many kids nature permits to be conceived.

    Why? That makes no sense.

    What if we were talking about DRIVING a vehicle? What then? Would you believe he has a right to drive even though he obviously cannot do so safely? How are children supposed to be so 'special' and 'important' yet you hold something like driving a vehicle to a higher standard as if kids have been reduced a few levels in value all of a sudden when it comes to the topic of a mental handicap.

    What you describe as cajones is me just having common sense and a lack of pc qualms.

    I don't care if my view seems offensive - it makes no sense to encourage reckless behavior when the individuals involved can't even comprehend what they're really doing. . . and - no - my view does not matter if they're mentally inept, etc. I don't believe anyone who doesn't have the capacity to grasp the heft of sex should have sex. Like: young teens who just haven't lived long enough to enter into such a situation with full knowledge or the ability to cope or handle the results.

    I say that type of thing all the time and often find people agree with me. . . but because he's mentally handicapped - suddenly that view is wrong? If he wasn't, and instead he was a 10 year old kid, what would your view be? Because that's what I see: a six year old having sex. I don't care if he's taller than his mother - age is just a number, is it not (yet against something else I often say)

    Their care takers should have taken precautions long ago if they were letting them have sex freely. Yes? Seems very basic to me, especially since they have to 'be around' to make sure things are safe and 'adopt the kid to support it because the parents can't'
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  2. #132
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    Re: UK judge OKs sterilisation of man with mental age of six year old

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    A vasectomy is considerably less invasive and dangerous than an abortion. It's also a permanent solution, whereas repeated pregnancies requiring repeated terminations could have severe physical effects on his "partner", who also has mental issues. It is the simplest solution, one that satisfied everyone involved, including the man himself. Beyond that, it's actually nobody else's business.
    Ok, it is nobody else's business, that's what's got me annoyed, the fact that it became a major story, whilst thousands of people are being Killed in Egypt we are worrying about a man having a vasectomy.
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  3. #133
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    Re: UK judge OKs sterilisation of man with mental age of six year old

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    So really - you're in disagreement with the court, and with the family whose already supporting adult #1 and adult #2 as well as child #1. . . you feel they should be allowed to have sex whenever and have however many kids nature permits to be conceived.

    Why? That makes no sense.

    What if we were talking about DRIVING a vehicle? What then? Would you believe he has a right to drive even though he obviously cannot do so safely? How are children supposed to be so 'special' and 'important' yet you hold something like driving a vehicle to a higher standard as if kids have been reduced a few levels in value all of a sudden when it comes to the topic of a mental handicap.

    What you describe as cajones is me just having common sense and a lack of pc qualms.

    I don't care if my view seems offensive - it makes no sense to encourage reckless behavior when the individuals involved can't even comprehend what they're really doing. . . and - no - my view does not matter if they're mentally inept, etc. I don't believe anyone who doesn't have the capacity to grasp the heft of sex should have sex. Like: young teens who just haven't lived long enough to enter into such a situation with full knowledge or the ability to cope or handle the results.

    I say that type of thing all the time and often find people agree with me. . . but because he's mentally handicapped - suddenly that view is wrong? If he wasn't, and instead he was a 10 year old kid, what would your view be? Because that's what I see: a six year old having sex. I don't care if he's taller than his mother - age is just a number, is it not (yet against something else I often say)

    Their care takers should have taken precautions long ago if they were letting them have sex freely. Yes? Seems very basic to me, especially since they have to 'be around' to make sure things are safe and 'adopt the kid to support it because the parents can't'
    I said 1 or 2 kids. Continuing your lineage should be very important for humans and everyone should have a chance to do it.
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  4. #134
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    Re: UK judge OKs sterilisation of man with mental age of six year old

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    Continuing your lineage should be very important for humans
    Not if you don't know what a lineage is. 'Continuing one's lineage' is a conscious, metaphysical, mental construct that I'm pretty sure a chap of 40IQ wouldn't grasp and something which wouldn't even occur to him.
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  5. #135
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    Re: UK judge OKs sterilisation of man with mental age of six year old

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    That's not my point. I'm pointing out that there's an inconsistency that needs to be addressed:

    1) They're alleging he's incapable of understanding or consenting to a medical procedure.
    2) But they're saying he's capable of making the consented decision to have sex.
    How is that confusing? There is a significant difference from a social experience and a medical procedure. One has a lot more legal and health ramifications than the other. There are reasons why this continues to be a concern for guardianship, because it involves the negotiation of ensuring that the rights of the individual are not unjustifiably circumvented, while their need for services and support remains.

    Furthermore, what they are stating is that legally his consent is different from his social consent. He may say he is in favor, but that does not mean that the courts would agree he actually gave legal consent. Under legal consent, he has the right to have sex without approval from the state, whereas medical procedures come under additional scrutiny (especially those with a dangerous past, like sterilization).

    But to your point - no, I disagree. If you don't understand what sex really is and what it's meant for, you shouldn't be permitted or encouraged to have it. Come on - we hear it in abortion arguments all the time: don't have sex if you're not mature enough when you're a teen. . . etc.
    The problem here is that nowhere in the article does it suggest that this individual does not know what sex was, while having it.

    Furthermore, there is a significant difference between what you are arguing from what is being argued in the abortion context. While the non-disabled adult is free to have sex as they please, with the only ramifications being once a child is produced (and even then, the conversation is usually restricted to offspring, not their ability to screw), you seem to be under the impression that you should stop those with intellectual disability from even engaging in sexual activity. What's fascinating is that you stick with the argument that legal consent is knowledge of what sex is, but somehow children without disabilities (who cannot give legal consent) are granted this knowledge of sex.

    Third, we have had sexual education for individuals with intellectual disability for decades.

    Underaged children who are more mentally advanced than this man aren't allowed to consent and parents wouldn't permit them to engage (or shouldn't) - he doesn't get special treatment just because he's physically reached a certain point in his life.
    Yeah, and they are children. This man is an adult. He's hardly asking for special treatment, considering the rest of his life he is considered legally inferior to that of any non-disabled or mildly-disabled adult. He had to go through a court system in order to determine if he could be sterilized, regardless if he wanted it in the first place.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 08-18-13 at 07:02 AM.
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  6. #136
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    Re: UK judge OKs sterilisation of man with mental age of six year old

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    What if we were talking about DRIVING a vehicle? What then? Would you believe he has a right to drive even though he obviously cannot do so safely? How are children supposed to be so 'special' and 'important' yet you hold something like driving a vehicle to a higher standard as if kids have been reduced a few levels in value all of a sudden when it comes to the topic of a mental handicap.
    My own sibling may possibly be able to drive a car, but as of right now, he is not ready for it. He has a job and lives semi-independently. He will be allowed to have a relationship with someone, get married, and yes, have sex. No, he would not be able to raise a child responsibly, which is why condoms and other safe sex methods would be promoted.

    We don't give the guy all or nothing. It's a series of negotiations, boundaries, and attempts to do right by his own desires, like any other man.

    And yes, the mental-age metaphor has been used. Some areas, his problem solving range is at an early grade school range. However, many other parts of him are not reduced to that number.

    Yes, my sibling is not this man, and his condition is not the same. Nevertheless, the restrictions placed on his involvement in society in the many of the discussed areas are similar, and the orientation we use is not at all unheard of or unaccepted by medical professionals or individuals in the disability community.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 08-18-13 at 07:17 AM.
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    Re: UK judge OKs sterilisation of man with mental age of six year old

    I needed to edit the first post in regard to the man's knowledge of sexuality. He seemed to understand the relationship he had with his girlfriend, but was unaware of the process of pregnancy until after the fact.
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    Re: UK judge OKs sterilisation of man with mental age of six year old

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    Not if you don't know what a lineage is. 'Continuing one's lineage' is a conscious, metaphysical, mental construct that I'm pretty sure a chap of 40IQ wouldn't grasp and something which wouldn't even occur to him.
    ...... Wow. Can I jerk off over your wife at night if shes asleep? I mean... she will never know so whats the harm? (assuming you have one)
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  9. #139
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    Re: UK judge OKs sterilisation of man with mental age of six year old

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    That's not my point. I'm pointing out that there's an inconsistency that needs to be addressed:

    1) They're alleging he's incapable of understanding or consenting to a medical procedure.
    2) But they're saying he's capable of making the consented decision to have sex.

    The two don't compute - he's either capable of consenting and understanding, or he's not.
    One is a biological process which many animals undertake. A Medical procedure is however something else.

    The man in this case has the physical ability and desires to have sex but he's not capable of raising the child produced if conception happens. He is in need of supervision by his family who took the decision to keep him and his partner separate so as to prevent more pregnancies but that has harmed the couple emotionally.
    The judge took all facts into consideration and gave legal consent for sterilisation for all the reasons Mancs Skipper has already outlined. Equally - the major mental health charity that tries to protect such individuals rights agreed with the decision to sterilise based on the facts they had.

  10. #140
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    Re: UK judge OKs sterilisation of man with mental age of six year old

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    Seems he is telling the court he doesn't want children, but isn't competent to guarantee that with traditional BC measures.

    I'm not sure what the problem is here?
    The problem is that the article doesn't explicitly state that the man is "cognitively challenged", and the cognitively challenged of DP can't read between the lines.
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