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Thread: UK judge OKs sterilisation of man with mental age of six year old

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    Re: UK judge OKs sterilisation of man with mental age of six year old

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    It's not hard to follow. Informed consent is a fundamental part of medical ethics. A Doctor or nurse treating a person who lacks the capacity to give such a consent enters a potential minefield. Being seen to be acting in the interests of the patient, and not the convenience of yourself or of others, is vital. Surgery, even if reversible, is a major event, and obviously needs greater laegal overview, but prescribing and administering medication is less clearcut. In my example, I suggested that medicating a heart condition or an infection could be seen as acceptable practice since the patient's life or health will be directly damaged by not intervening.
    Administering Birth Control without consent is qualitatively different. A relative physically giving the drug isn't constrained in the same way, but the Dr. who prescribes it is.
    So informed consent is necessary for the pill but not sterilization?

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    Re: UK judge OKs sterilisation of man with mental age of six year old

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    So informed consent is necessary for the pill but not sterilization?
    yeah, I'm with Dave and Henrin on this, though I have no issue with the original decision.

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    UK judge OKs sterilisation of man with mental age of six year old

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    This story doesnt make sense already. How can he be apt enough to have a job but so clueless of breeding?
    Skills come in many different forms. Employment for those with more intense levels of intellectual disabilities is still possible, but that does not mean that they have the skills necessary to raise a child responsibly.

    That being said, if the individual in question literally understood that this is a more radical procedure, rather than his family or others misleading him, then this is is where our understanding of rights for the disabled might get complicated and could get in the way of choice. We create the legal structures, and many times, the understandings of what these individuals are capable of doing on their own. We can have the propensity to be in error.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: UK judge OKs sterilisation of man with mental age of six year old

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    Im just scared its a Romeo and Juliet scenario with the parents controlling everything and never letting them see eachother unless he goes through with operation. That his words "I dont want children" doesnt actually mean hes not planning on it instead of "Take away my ability to have kids please". How do we knwo his consent isnt coerced by hanging his girlfriend over his head as a carrot? How do we know he isnt saying, "I don't want kids" so that he can just finally get to see his girlfriend that these people keep away from him? Id like to know the full context of this story instead of a few snippets of quotes but I have already repeated this multiple times so ill stop saying it over and over.

    Luckily, a judge is involved who has heard all the info, and that's who is deciding, not those of us who just get the snippet of quotes...

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    UK judge OKs sterilisation of man with mental age of six year old

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakryte View Post
    I agree that the government should not be allowed to sterilize people if it decides them unfit for whatever reason. However, I do think this issue is a bit more complicated. If he has the mind of a 6-year old child, like a 6-year old child he can not truly give consent. So who is to make the choice? The parents? That would make sense to me I suppose. But then again, say a child is dying and parents refuse to take the child to the hospital. There is a thing as neglect--parents cannot just do whatever they want with their child. So if the parents refused, I can see the case being made for this being an example of neglect. It is further complicated by the fact that he has a job. That suggests he has a mind capable of consenting.

    I don't think this sets some precedent. It seems more like a gray area case.
    In guardianships, there are a great many issues that crop up. The best approach to have is to be careful, thoughtful, and empathetic. It is not uncommon at all for guardians to engage in activities that are perhaps troubling if not reversible by the courts. In some sense you have to continuously remind yourselves that this is another adult you are making many decisions for, and they have rights and wishes as well. Reducing that person's identity to the IQ number or the supposed "mental age" is unbecoming of the responsibility.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: UK judge OKs sterilisation of man with mental age of six year old

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
    That's for the forum owner to decide. If you don't like Americans talking about international politics, you should PM the Admin and ask him to remove all the international political sub-forums on this website.

    I'm not sure you'll like his answer, though.

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    Re: UK judge OKs sterilisation of man with mental age of six year old

    I'm hung up on the fact that he's having physical relations while having the mental capacity of a child. The order and medical intervention are no big deal to me. I don't follow how he can be declared 1) incapable of making the decision to have a medical procedure but 2) be mentally sound enough to even have sex.

    Shouldn't it stand to reason that if he can't consent to one thing thus he can't consent to the other?

    Yeah - I'm believing, here, that an invalid shouldn't be having sex. I think the issue is that they are allowed to have sex together even when neither of them are capable of A) understanding, fully, what's happening. B) having a child safely. C) supporting said child and D) both making the informed-consent decisions necessary to avoid it in the future.

    What kind of caregiver to a mentally handicapped individual LETS that type of situation happen when they KNOW the natural outcome of such activity? How does that even begin? "We have to support you 100% in life, but go ahead and have sex and risk a pregnancy" - how did he even come to know what sex is?

    I mean - my god, what the heck is wrong with this situation?

    And of course - some idiots think it's perfectly ok to put both HIM and HER through child rearing (yes - the child is being raised by others, but seriously, it should be avoided to begin with) Oh my . . . what's wrong with people. Things are bad enough when perfectly capable people have kids they don't want.
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    Re: UK judge OKs sterilisation of man with mental age of six year old

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    I'm hung up on the fact that he's having physical relations while having the mental capacity of a child. The order and medical intervention are no big deal to me. I don't follow how he can be declared 1) incapable of making the decision to have a medical procedure but 2) be mentally sound enough to even have sex.

    Shouldn't it stand to reason that if he can't consent to one thing thus he can't consent to the other?

    Yeah - I'm believing, here, that an invalid shouldn't be having sex. I think the issue is that they are allowed to have sex together even when neither of them are capable of A) understanding, fully, what's happening. B) having a child safely. C) supporting said child and D) both making the informed-consent decisions necessary to avoid it in the future.

    What kind of caregiver to a mentally handicapped individual LETS that type of situation happen when they KNOW the natural outcome of such activity? How does that even begin? "We have to support you 100% in life, but go ahead and have sex and risk a pregnancy" - how did he even come to know what sex is?

    I mean - my god, what the heck is wrong with this situation?

    And of course - some idiots think it's perfectly ok to put both HIM and HER through child rearing (yes - the child is being raised by others, but seriously, it should be avoided to begin with) Oh my . . . what's wrong with people. Things are bad enough when perfectly capable people have kids they don't want.
    People with intellectual disabilities are sexual beings and are allowed, and should be allowed to have sexual relationships. You shouldn't throw the person into a closet just because you think it prudent.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

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    Re: UK judge OKs sterilisation of man with mental age of six year old

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    People with intellectual disabilities are sexual beings and are allowed, and should be allowed to have sexual relationships. You shouldn't throw the person into a closet just because you think it prudent.
    That's not my point. I'm pointing out that there's an inconsistency that needs to be addressed:

    1) They're alleging he's incapable of understanding or consenting to a medical procedure.
    2) But they're saying he's capable of making the consented decision to have sex.

    The two don't compute - he's either capable of consenting and understanding, or he's not.

    The issue seems to be that they don't know what he is capable and incapable of, honestly.

    But to your point - no, I disagree. If you don't understand what sex really is and what it's meant for, you shouldn't be permitted or encouraged to have it. Come on - we hear it in abortion arguments all the time: don't have sex if you're not mature enough when you're a teen. . . etc.

    Underaged children who are more mentally advanced than this man aren't allowed to consent and parents wouldn't permit them to engage (or shouldn't) - he doesn't get special treatment just because he's physically reached a certain point in his life.
    Last edited by Aunt Spiker; 08-18-13 at 02:12 AM.
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    Re: UK judge OKs sterilisation of man with mental age of six year old

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    That's not my point. I'm pointing out that there's an inconsistency that needs to be addressed:

    1) They're alleging he's incapable of understanding or consenting to a medical procedure.
    2) But they're saying he's capable of making the consented decision to have sex.

    The two don't compute - he's either capable of consenting and understanding, or he's not.

    The issue seems to be that they don't know what he is capable and incapable of, honestly.

    But to your point - no, I disagree. If you don't understand what sex really is and what it's meant for, you shouldn't be permitted or encouraged to have it. Come on - we hear it in abortion arguments all the time: don't have sex if you're not mature enough when you're a teen. . . etc.

    Underaged children who are more mentally advanced than this man aren't allowed to consent and parents wouldn't permit them to engage (or shouldn't) - he doesn't get special treatment just because he's physically reached a certain point in his life.
    Even sloths and snails breed. Interesting you have enough cajones to deny this couple procreation. I think the human race can do better than that and society can help raise a kid or 2 of this guys if his parents arent willing. How many couples say "we wherent planning on having a baby! It just happened!" Then it happens to 2 retarded people and everyone makes a huge fuss.
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