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Thread: UK judge OKs sterilisation of man with mental age of six year old

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    Re: UK judge OKs sterilisation of man with mental age of six year old

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    This an ethical dilemma that is way too complicated to judge unless you have all the facts and have interviewed all the players involved. The issues relating to the sexuality of the intellectually impaired are incredibly difficult to resolve for carers, for the authorities and especially for the individuals concerned.

    As a family we have wrestled with these issues and the one thing, the only thing, I can say about the topic without fear of contradiction is that there are no solutions that apply 100% across the board in all situations. That said, I wouldn't be prepared to say whether the judge got it wrong or right, and anyone here who thinks they are qualified to do so is full of it.
    Thank you! Finally some damn common sense instead of people instantly judging based of a few snippets of quotes without the full context.
    I'm Finding it Harder to be a Gentleman, White Stripes ~ "You think I care about me and only me. When every girl needs help climbing up a tree."

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    Re: UK judge OKs sterilisation of man with mental age of six year old

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    He was completely freaked out by the arrival of the baby, he said in court that he wanted to have sex, but not to have children. He won't necessarily have sex only with his girlfriend.
    I understand that his equally freaked girlfriend has a learning disability too, and if he's still fertile, who is going to force her to take a pill every day? Or give her a monthly injection?
    The only reason it went to court is that he doesn't have the mental capacity to make a legally binding decision.
    With an IQ of 40, he's operating at a similar intellectual level as a dolphin or a chimp. He can carry out simple tasks with training and supervision and can even be somewhat independent, but he's never going to live an unsupported life. Helping on a market stall is a step or two down from asking if someone would like fries with their meal. It's not a career, but for him it's an achievement.
    Having the op allows him a "normal" sex life without the devastating risk (for him) of unwanted children. He can't make a binding choice but a judge can establish what he wants, and choose for him.
    Who doesn't get freaked out by a new baby? Are you sure of the context of his words? Lots of people want to have sex. Lots of people want to not have more children (at that specific moment in time at least). If a chimp can survive on its own in the wild I think society helping this guy with a kid or two if his parents arent willing isnt so bad. What if his kid dies and he decides to change his mind? (assuming dude chose the vasectomy and the judge is simply okay'ing it, not simply just decreeing it upon his own judge whims)

    If im incompetent and I tell a judge "My fat brings me grief. I want to keep eating. But I dont want to get fatter" Is it okay for the judge to deduce that as "Give this man liposuction and gastric bypass surgery."
    I'm Finding it Harder to be a Gentleman, White Stripes ~ "You think I care about me and only me. When every girl needs help climbing up a tree."

  3. #93
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    Re: UK judge OKs sterilisation of man with mental age of six year old

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    No Cookies | thetelegraph.com.au



    Has Pandora's box been opened for a subclass of society that isnt allowed to breed in the UK's future? A six year old is smart enough to know the basic jist of birds and the bees. So I want to know if this man agreed to the viscetomy or not. Just because he said "I dotn want to have another kid" doesnt mean "Disable my seed from being able to spread forever." I want to know his exact intention. If they can do this for "personal best interest" why not cut off rapists balls for the "best interest of society"? Just sayin'.

    "I dont want to have a kid" could mean he was trying to appease the judge and saying "I wont have any more I promise". So what is the context? Or did the judge say, "We are going to do a special operation on your balls that will make it so you cant have kids anymore more. Is this what you want?" Im worried the guy might have been confused and the judge let his personal standards get in the way and would like to know more about this.
    There are definitely questions surrounding this. But who am I to say? In a perfect, polisciguy utopia, all the male children would be given reversible vasectomies at birth and one could apply to have it reversed later in life.
    Be skeptical of anyone who wears a political label - party or ideology - with pride. Most of our problems are because people love to "debate" (it isn't debate, but they pretend it is), but are not interested in developing solutions. Solutions require empathy, thought, and compromise, and most folks aren't interested.

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    Re: UK judge OKs sterilisation of man with mental age of six year old

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    Yeah .... That paper seems to be outlining the exact opposite of what you claimed

    <<<Finally, prior to 2000, only one study mentioned
    sterilization issues of two male mentally handicapped
    individuals (Elkins et al., 1988). However, in 2000,
    Carlson, Taylor, & Wilson designed a survey study
    to specifically look at awareness in legal and medical
    organizations of male sterilization using surgery or
    hormonal control. This study was the first study
    to attempt to evaluate any aspect of sterilization of
    male mentally handicapped individuals and thus
    raises awareness to the lack of knowledge in this area.
    However, this study was very poorly designed with very
    unclear and inconclusive results. In addition, a low
    response rate, no reliability or validity of the survey
    reported, and a small sample size (n=51) make any
    results difficult to generalize to a broader population.>>>


    <<<Finally, in a descriptive study by Elkins et al., a
    Michigan clinic received 20 parental requests for
    sterilization (1988). After each parent consulted
    with an ethics committee to discuss alternatives to
    sterilization, state laws and other support issues, only
    5 cases were recommended for sterilization. Thus, this
    study demonstrates how increased parental support
    can decrease requests for sterilization.>>>
    How on earth does it do that? They happen, not often, but they do happen.
    PeteEU

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    Re: UK judge OKs sterilisation of man with mental age of six year old

    Quote Originally Posted by polisciguy View Post
    There are definitely questions surrounding this. But who am I to say? In a perfect, polisciguy utopia, all the male children would be given reversible vasectomies at birth and one could apply to have it reversed later in life.
    That could be interesting if it has 100% non failure rate. I could see it being misused in martial law (or maybe some other weird crap?) scenarios though and not allowing people to turn it back on. But would be great for the whole high school era children.
    I'm Finding it Harder to be a Gentleman, White Stripes ~ "You think I care about me and only me. When every girl needs help climbing up a tree."

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    Re: UK judge OKs sterilisation of man with mental age of six year old

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    Who doesn't get freaked out by a new baby? Are you sure of the context of his words? Lots of people want to have sex. Lots of people want to not have more children (at that specific moment in time at least). If a chimp can survive on its own in the wild I think society helping this guy with a kid or two if his parents arent willing isnt so bad. What if his kid dies and he decides to change his mind? (assuming dude chose the vasectomy and the judge is simply okay'ing it, not simply just decreeing it upon his own judge whims)

    If im incompetent and I tell a judge "My fat brings me grief. I want to keep eating. But I dont want to get fatter" Is it okay for the judge to deduce that as "Give this man liposuction and gastric bypass surgery."
    When you're driven to resorting to the ridiculous, your argument is lost.
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    Re: UK judge OKs sterilisation of man with mental age of six year old

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    How on earth does it do that? They happen, not often, but they do happen.
    let us look at your original claim:

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    no...the legal procedures were followed to allow this... what is the problem? ***It happens all the time in the US***, so why on earth cant it happen in the UK as well?
    Pete, it seems you have a natural gift for talking out your ass

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    Re: UK judge OKs sterilisation of man with mental age of six year old

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Chuckles View Post
    let us look at your original claim:



    Pete, it seems you have a natural gift for talking out your ass
    And it does happen all the time, there is no law against it. Lets put it this way, it happens just as much if not more than it does in the UK.. happy?
    PeteEU

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    Re: UK judge OKs sterilisation of man with mental age of six year old

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    He was completely freaked out by the arrival of the baby, he said in court that he wanted to have sex, but not to have children. He won't necessarily have sex only with his girlfriend.
    I understand that his equally freaked girlfriend has a learning disability too, and if he's still fertile, who is going to force her to take a pill every day?
    Its already been said that they are supervised. Presumably whoever does that could give her the pill just as they would any other kind of medication.

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    Re: UK judge OKs sterilisation of man with mental age of six year old

    Quote Originally Posted by dirtpoorchris View Post
    Who doesn't get freaked out by a new baby? Are you sure of the context of his words? Lots of people want to have sex. Lots of people want to not have more children (at that specific moment in time at least). If a chimp can survive on its own in the wild I think society helping this guy with a kid or two if his parents arent willing isnt so bad. What if his kid dies and he decides to change his mind? (assuming dude chose the vasectomy and the judge is simply okay'ing it, not simply just decreeing it upon his own judge whims)

    If im incompetent and I tell a judge "My fat brings me grief. I want to keep eating. But I dont want to get fatter" Is it okay for the judge to deduce that as "Give this man liposuction and gastric bypass surgery."
    Just love the melodrama of the thread.

    The birth of the couple's first child had had a "profound" effect on both families, and measures were taken to ensure there was no further pregnancy, including keeping the couple apart and supervising any contact between them.

    The judge said the couple's relationship "nearly broke under the strain, but remarkably weathered the storm".

    DE's social worker, who specialises in looking after disabled adults, had told the court "how very unusual it is to see such an enduring relationship between two significantly disabled people", adding it was "remarkable and very precious and should be valued and protected in their interests".
    The families of the two individuals have been keeping them apart to prevent further pregnancies, the guy has enough wit about him to say he doesn't want any more children, nobody opposed the court action because as Mancs Skipper stated previously - they couldn't cope with any further children but the couple have an enduring love for each other which the sterilisation means can go ahead without risk of pregnancies. It's also been made clear that the guy was patently suffering from being apart from his partner and he doesn't want any more kids-but somehow despite the families moving for the court order - I read statements about the government being behind this...

    As well as the usual poorly informed attacks on the UK early in the thread before facts were investigated.

    Good grief.

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