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CIA ‘admits’ to having file on Chomsky, might have destroyed it

ecofarm said:
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So it looks like we are going to move towards a simple debate over sources and not the content even tho both reports are virtually similar when linked to the original source..
 
TheDemSocialist said:
So it looks like we are going to move towards a simple debate over sources and not the content even tho both reports are virtually similar when linked to the original source..
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So you admit that I am the Puppet Master? Look, dude, you can talk about whatever you want. No one is forcing you to respond to me.

Is CNN the same as PressTV? hahaha
 
ecofarm said:
So you admit that I am the Puppet Master? Look, dude, you can talk about whatever you want. No one is forcing you to respond to me.

Is CNN the same as PressTV? hahaha
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Did i say they were same? No i claimed they both use propaganda dude.
 
ecofarm said:
Similar propaganda?
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Of course. Both try to portray negative things about each other and both try to portray positive things about themselves. Saying that not everything in propaganda is true and not everything in propaganda is false.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Of course. Both try to portray negative things about each other and both try to portray positive things about themselves. Saying that not everything in propaganda is true and not everything in propaganda is false.
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This level of false equivalence is too much.

Good day.
 
ecofarm said:
This level of false equivalence is too much.

Good day.
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I would also strongly disagree because one does not have to flat out lie to make it propaganda.
And its night time here so good night :mrgreen:
 
ecofarm said:
Of course groups in the US have propaganda arms, but the government does not.
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You're certainly ignorant of our government's operations if you truly believe that. We've spent (wasted) over $20,000,000 on propaganda operations directed towards Cuba which are jammed anyway. That's one country. The military was running propaganda missions in Iraq and are doing the same in Afghanistan which are directed at the populations of each country. There was a lot of domestic U.S. propaganda in the lead up to the Iraq War. Our government and military utilize propaganda when it serves them… just like everyone else.
 
Jango said:
You're certainly ignorant of our government's operations if you truly believe that. We've spent (wasted) over $20,000,000 on propaganda operations directed towards Cuba which are jammed anyway. That's one country. The military was running propaganda missions in Iraq and are doing the same in Afghanistan which are directed at the populations of each country. There was a lot of domestic U.S. propaganda in the lead up to the Iraq War. Our government and military utilize propaganda when it serves them… just like everyone else.
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It's not really propaganda when it is true (using the extremely broad definition of propaganda of "anything intended to influence" is not really legit, as such lends itself to nihilist positions supporting conspiracy theory). We're not telling the people of Cuba, Afghan or Iraq lies.

Regarding supposed "domestic propaganda" and Iraq, there was no propaganda. In case you haven't heard, Saddam was actively faking a WMD program in order to fend off the Iranian regime. The intel from various countries, who all believed he had such a program, matched with and resulted from Saddam's ruse.

Sorry, but I don't do conspiracy theories and I don't think CNN is a propaganda arm. Do you remember when PressTV claimed a cardboard mock-up was a new advanced fighter jet? Do you remember when PressTV claimed a cardboard mock-up was a stealth drone? That's totally out of CNN's league. And besides, PressTV is the main (domestic and international) propaganda arm of a totalitarian regime - not the same.
 
You're not really in a position to make an absolute declaration that we're not lying to Cuba, Iraq or Afghanistan, are you? I mean, unless you were a PSYOPS officer during your time in the U.S. military …

Regarding Iraq War domestic propaganda: when government officials say something, like (and I'm paraphrasing), "Iraq will nuke us and our allies because they have the capability," that's propaganda.

How many times has some authority figure in our government said something like this: "Iran is close to getting the bomb!" I'll tell you, a lot. Between us and the Israelis, since like 1992, that utterance or something remotely similar has been making headwaves in the press in the West.

Press TV? When did I mention that propaganda organ… or even compare it to CNN? Have you been drinking?
 
ecofarm said:
It's not really propaganda when it is true (using the extremely broad definition of propaganda of "anything intended to influence" is not really legit, as such lends itself to nihilist positions supporting conspiracy theory).
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So why did you call this propaganda? This is true and immediately you came out and called it "propaganda".. If we are going by your very very narrow narrow (which i wouldn't even call it true because propaganda can be both true and false) definition of propaganda then why did you call this propaganda? Why would you call this "russian propaganda" then?
 
TheDemSocialist said:
So why did you call this propaganda? This is true and immediately you came out and called it "propaganda"..
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That's not true. I called RT a propaganda arm for the Russian regime, and it is. As you used a propaganda arm of the Russian regime, I felt it appropriate to point out that regime puts musical bands in prison for peaceful demonstrations based on convictions for "disrespecting religion".
 
ecofarm said:
That's not true. I called RT a propaganda arm for the Russian regime, and it is. As you used a propaganda arm of the Russian regime, I felt it appropriate to point out that regime puts musical bands in prison for peaceful demonstrations based on convictions for "disrespecting religion".
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So if its a propaganda arm and as you called propaganda must be false shouldnt this then be false?
 
ecofarm said:
That's not true. I called RT a propaganda arm for the Russian regime, and it is. As you used a propaganda arm of the Russian regime
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I don't trust RT either. Or Voice of Russia. Or Pravda, which is officially designated a propaganda organ.
 
Jango said:
I don't trust RT either. Or Voice of Russia. Or Pravda, which is officially designated a propaganda organ.
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And it's not like I (we) trust CNN, but CNN is much less likely to carry flat-out BS and it doesn't constantly go out of its way to disparage other countries while ignoring domestic context.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
So if its a propaganda arm and as you called propaganda must be false shouldnt this then be false?
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Such absolutism about such simple concepts.

Frightening, really.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Im literally using your words and your concepts....
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No your not. Your using false equivalence and absolutism to pretend fringe propaganda websites are the same as CNN. As I'm not up for a head-shave, a robe and a bowl of fruit punch, I shall not entertain such unreasonable nonsense.
 
ecofarm said:
No your not. Your using false equivalence and absolutism to pretend fringe propaganda websites are the same as CNN.
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No i am not.

As I'm not up for a head-shave, a robe and a bowl of fruit punch, I shall not entertain such unreasonable nonsense.
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Did you say propaganda is a lie? Did you say RT is a arm of propaganda from the Russian gov?
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Did you say propaganda is a lie?
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I said that defining propaganda as "an attempt to influence" is not useful, as one can always argue that the intent was to inform (as long as the source believes the info to be true). In trying to define propaganda as "anything meant to influence someone", you are engaging in false-equivalence based on the false premise that there is no other motive.

Did you say RT is a arm of propaganda from the Russian gov?
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Yes. By trying to pretend that everything from a propaganda arm must be propaganda (as defined commonly), you are engaging in intellectually dishonest apologism based in pathetically nonsensical absolutism.
 
ecofarm said:
I said that defining propaganda as "an attempt to influence" is not useful, as one can always argue that the intent was to inform (as long as the source believes the info to be true). In trying to define propaganda as "anything meant to influence someone", you are engaging in false-equivalence based on the false premise that there is no other motive.
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"It's not really propaganda when it is true (using the extremely broad definition of propaganda of "anything intended to influence" is not really legit, as such lends itself to nihilist positions supporting conspiracy theory). We're not telling the people of Cuba, Afghan or Iraq lies. "

If its not propaganda when its "true" then it must be propaganda when it is false.


Yes. By trying to pretend that everything from a propaganda arm must be propaganda (as defined commonly), you are engaging in intellectually dishonest apologism based in pathetically nonsensical absolutism.
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If RT is a propaganda arm of the Russia couldnt we argue that CNN International is a propaganda arm of the US? Or do propaganda arms have to be exclusively controlled by a government and have to only distriube information that makes their mother country looks favorable and the host country or enemies country unfavorable?
 
TheDemSocialist said:
If its not propaganda when its "true" then it must be propaganda when it is false.
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You don't seem to understand the basic nor common definition of propaganda. In order to prove that something is propaganda by the basic definition, you must prove that the intent was NOT to inform, but only to influence. As one can always make the argument that the intent was to inform (as long as the source believes the info to be true), this definition leads to long side arguments about motive. It's much easier to establish something is propaganda when it is false; however, we must remember that the source must know the info is false in order to prove that the sole intent was to influence others. Of course, someone could provide false information, believing it to be true, and that is not propaganda.

Given yours and other's inability to navigate this concept, propaganda is generally easier (and commonly) defined as something that the source knows is untrue (thus eliminating the possibility that the motive was to inform).

If RT is a propaganda arm of the Russia couldnt we argue that CNN International is a propaganda arm of the US? Or do propaganda arms have to be exclusively controlled by a government and have to only distriube information that makes their mother country looks favorable and the host country or enemies country unfavorable?
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Propaganda arms exist primarily to influence and not to inform. Thus, RT is a propaganda arm while CNN is not. Ownership of the source, private or public, is irrelevant. The fact that Russia (and Vene and Iran) utilize state media as propaganda does, however, make it worse. You see, there will always be private groups intentionally spreading lies, but a government doing so as a matter of state controlled media is rather worse.
 
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Why wouldn't the CIA have a file on Chomsky? They have files on many outspoken public figures. The CIA is an intelligence organization. Collecting data and information is what they do.
 
ecofarm said:
Are you not familiar with Chomsky, or do you lack critical thinking ability? He blames everything on the US and capitalism, he's a first-rate self-serving utopia-based populist whore (no wonder people living protected and ignorant lives adore him).
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Doesn't Chomsky use "critical thinking"?
 
Moot said:
Doesn't Chomsky use "critical thinking"?
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Sure but he's an intellectually dishonest, hateful, populist scumbag. Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference between him and Chavez.

It's his fanboys who lack the ability to discern such. They are so busy cheering for their "team" they will believe, 110%, anything that agrees with their rage-fueled bigotry. They're like conspiracy theorists, believing every little bit and piece of anything that will forward their slander of the "other", except they are motivated not by insane levels of paranoia but insane levels of "us vs. them" and a seething jealousy of the rich.


ps. Why do you put critical thinking in quotes? Do you think it's not a real thing? hahaha
 
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