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Thread: Obama Protesters Sing 'Bye Bye Black Sheep,' in AZ [W:161]

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    Re: Obama Protesters Sing 'Bye Bye Black Sheep,' in AZ

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    So now you are insulting my grandmother by calling her a socialist?
    No, I didn't insult your grandmother. Socialist isn't an insult. If your grandmother identified as a social democrat back then she was definitely a socialist.

    FYI, my grandfather, died before I was born. It seems you have a real problem with just reading what I write, my grandparents, my mother and myself are social democrats, NOT socialists.
    No, I have a problem with just ignoring everything I know about the issue because you say otherwise.

    Social democracy started in the Netherlands in 1894.
    You mean the socialist democratic workers party (SDAP), founded as a gradualist socialist party after a split with the radical revolutionary socialists?

    The current social democratic party was formed just after the second world war, when the previous social democrats party that was banned during the second world war joined forces with the progressive liberal party and the Christian Democratic Union.
    Ah, labor party. Wasn't that the party which split due to the strong socialist elements? Would make sense, considering its origins.

    Dutch social democracy was started because they did not believe in the Anarchistic/socialistic/communist leader of the Socialist Union who believed in revolution.
    ...Which is exactly what I said, thanks.

    Just for review:
    Quote Originally Posted by Republic Now!
    Social democrats are socialist. They just believe in achieving socialism through democracy as opposed to revolution.
    As stated before, while socialists believe in revolution and making every one into the proletariat, we as social-democracy supporters (as my grandparents, my mother and myself) do not believe in that.
    Alright fine. It's not socialism because you're achieving it differently. We'll call it cupcakes from now on. Happy now?
    One who makes himself a worm cannot complain when tread upon.

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    Re: Obama Protesters Sing 'Bye Bye Black Sheep,' in AZ

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    So now you are insulting my grandmother by calling her a socialist? FYI, my grandfather, died before I was born. It seems you have a real problem with just reading what I write, my grandparents, my mother and myself are social democrats, NOT socialists.

    Social democracy started in the Netherlands in 1894. The current social democratic party was formed just after the second world war, when the previous social democrats party that was banned during the second world war joined forces with the progressive liberal party and the Christian Democratic Union.

    Dutch social democracy was started because they did not believe in the Anarchistic/socialistic/communist leader of the Socialist Union who believed in revolution.

    As stated before, while socialists believe in revolution and making every one into the proletariat, we as social-democracy supporters (as my grandparents, my mother and myself) do not believe in that.
    Thanks for the insights.
    "Never before in modern history have we had a president-elect so ill-informed, ill-tempered, irrational and ill-equipped to deal with the major issues that face this country." Kareem Abdul Jabbar, 1/19/17

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    Re: Obama Protesters Sing 'Bye Bye Black Sheep,' in AZ

    Quote Originally Posted by Republic Now! View Post
    No, I didn't insult your grandmother. Socialist isn't an insult. If your grandmother identified as a social democrat back then she was definitely a socialist.
    Yes, you did insult my grandmother by calling her a socialist. She was a social democrat. Even back then, if my grandmother identified herself as a social democrat she was a social democrat, not a socialist. That is not just a matter of interpretation but of 2 entirely different political ideologies and groups. You may want to chuck them into one big pile under the name socialist but you are plainly wrong about that. That you keep on trying to do that is an issue for me, so I keep responding to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Republic Now! View Post
    No, I have a problem with just ignoring everything I know about the issue because you say otherwise.
    I am not ignoring everything but you keep on picking this fight with me/keep writing things that are incorrect and me wanting to respond to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Republic Now! View Post
    You mean the socialist democratic workers party (SDAP), founded as a gradualist socialist party after a split with the radical revolutionary socialists?
    The name SDAP stands for Social Democratic Workers Party, not socialistic. They may have first preached socialistic revolution through parliament but at the time my grandmother was member of this party it had changed to a truly social democratic party which was made even more clearly when it reformed as the PvdA, the party of the workers which had completely lost the name social democrat from it's name. It can also be seen as the Labour Party.

    We embrace capitalism and individual freedom and are clearly different than socialist/communist parties.

    Quote Originally Posted by Republic Now! View Post
    Ah, labor party. Wasn't that the party which split due to the strong socialist elements? Would make sense, considering its origins.
    Yes, there was a split, but it was due to some within the party who wanted back to the old socialist democratic policies of just decades before, they were revisionists and did not approve of the new social democratic party union with progressive liberals and progressive christians. They, unlike the PvdA, were extremely socialist/communist or were very pacifist and did not feel at home in modern social democratic movement.

    Old SDAP

    The Oude Sociaal Democratische Arbeiders Partij (Old SDAP or OSDAP) was a Dutch political party that was formed on the 11th of May 1946 by members of the former SDAP, who did not recognize themselves in the new breakthrough Labour Party. The OSDAP based itself on the SDAP principle party program of 1912 (the Leiden program).

    The OSDAP participated in 1946 in the city council elections in a joined list the the Communist Party Netherlands. In Amsterdam and Rotterdam the OSDAP was able to win a seat in the city council. In Hilversum they won a seat without help of the communist party. In 1948 the OSDAP participated in the elections for the Dutch version of congress. They had joined in a list with the Progressive Party for the Worldgovernment. That combination did not win any seats.

    In 1949 the OSDAP participated in local elections. In 1951 the party went belly up. Part of the members joined the Socialist Union (which later went belly up and their members joined the Pacifistic Socialist Party).
    Oude SDAP - Wikipedia

    So no, there was not split in the party because the Labour Party was too socialist for some but not socialist enough for a small minority.

    In this day and age there is a Labour Party (PvdA) and a Socialist Party.

    Quote Originally Posted by Republic Now! View Post
    ...Which is exactly what I said, thanks.

    Just for review:




    Alright fine. It's not socialism because you're achieving it differently. We'll call it cupcakes from now on. Happy now?
    And no, we are not wanting the same thing as socialism wants. We have other ideas and I have already posted a long list of differences between socialist and social democratic.

    And now I am going to do something more constructive (IMHO) and I am going to draft some more NFL fantasy football teams and discuss things that actually are relevant instead of responding to posts that keep on repeating the same incorrect statements about social democracy.

    Have a nice day and if you want to discuss whether Obama is a socialist I am perfectly happy to discuss that but and we will have to agree to completely disagree about what you think about the social democratic movement and how you think it is the same as socialism, and my opinion who knows that they are not the same.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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    Re: Obama Protesters Sing 'Bye Bye Black Sheep,' in AZ

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    Yes, you did insult my grandmother by calling her a socialist. She was a social democrat. Even back then, if my grandmother identified herself as a social democrat she was a social democrat, not a socialist. That is not just a matter of interpretation but of 2 entirely different political ideologies and groups. You may want to chuck them into one big pile under the name socialist but you are plainly wrong about that. That you keep on trying to do that is an issue for me, so I keep responding to it.
    Alright, well the problems with socialism also exist in cupcakism, and this is where the contention lies.


    I am not ignoring everything but you keep on picking this fight with me/keep writing things that are incorrect and me wanting to respond to it.
    The reality is the one picking the fight with you, I'm just pointing it out.


    The name SDAP stands for Social Democratic Workers Party, not socialistic.
    Where does the "social" in "social democrat" come from? It doesn't mean you have a lot of friends.

    They may have first preached socialistic revolution through parliament but at the time my grandmother was member of this party it had changed to a truly social democratic party
    Yes, they went from revolutionaries to socialist democrats who favor democratic means of achieving socialism.

    which was made even more clearly when it reformed as the PvdA, the party of the workers which had completely lost the name social democrat from it's name. It can also be seen as the Labour Party.
    "Party of the workers" is socialist rhetoric. It has to do with the glorification of the proletariat and the obsession with the class struggle.

    We embrace capitalism and individual freedom and are clearly different than socialist/communist parties.
    Maybe you do, but the ideology you claim to follow advocates a slow decay of these things. They advocate only as much freedom and individualism as the present political climate requires.

    Yes, there was a split, but it was due to some within the party who wanted back to the old socialist democratic policies of just decades before,
    I'm not talking about the split with the radical marxists, I'm talking about the split with the VVD.

    they were revisionists and did not approve of the new social democratic party union with progressive liberals and progressive christians. They, unlike the PvdA, were extremely socialist/communist or were very pacifist and did not feel at home in modern social democratic movement.
    And progressive is just another word for cupcakes. Again, they were revolutionaries not reformists.

    Oude SDAP - Wikipedia

    So no, there was not split in the party because the Labour Party was too socialist for some but not socialist enough for a small minority.
    See above.

    In this day and age there is a Labour Party (PvdA) and a Socialist Party.
    And a communist party, and the GreenLeft. I'm aware that there are many strings of socialism in the Netherlands.



    And no, we are not wanting the same thing as socialism wants. We have other ideas and I have already posted a long list of differences between socialist and social democratic.
    Many of the differences were silly. I'm not going to bother going through each one when you're likely to dismiss them anyways, but one example was:

    Socialism is metaphysical (excessively abstract reasoning);
    Social democracy the other empirical (demonstrable, verifiable reasoning).

    Socialism is dogmatic;
    Social democracy is reflective and scientific.
    When socialists often mingled with science. Eugenics and social engineering went hand-in-hand with socialism in the late 19th - early 20th centuries. The "metaphysical" position is the one that denies these things on principle, despite the practical benefits of these programs for mankind.

    And now I am going to do something more constructive (IMHO) and I am going to draft some more NFL fantasy football teams and discuss things that actually are relevant instead of responding to posts that keep on repeating the same incorrect statements about social democracy.
    Good luck. Hopefully someday you'll come to a point where you're willing to examine the history of these things with an open mind.

    Who's your team BTW?

    Have a nice day and if you want to discuss whether Obama is a socialist I am perfectly happy to discuss that but and we will have to agree to completely disagree about what you think about the social democratic movement and how you think it is the same as socialism, and my opinion who knows that they are not the same.
    I would, though I feel that conversion would be similar to: "he's not socialist because he doesn't want to completely dismantle private enterprise tomorrow" or "he doesn't advocate revolution."
    One who makes himself a worm cannot complain when tread upon.

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    Re: Obama Protesters Sing 'Bye Bye Black Sheep,' in AZ

    Quote Originally Posted by Republic Now! View Post
    Alright, well the problems with socialism also exist in cupcakism, and this is where the contention lies.




    The reality is the one picking the fight with you, I'm just pointing it out.




    Where does the "social" in "social democrat" come from? It doesn't mean you have a lot of friends.



    Yes, they went from revolutionaries to socialist democrats who favor democratic means of achieving socialism.



    "Party of the workers" is socialist rhetoric. It has to do with the glorification of the proletariat and the obsession with the class struggle.



    Maybe you do, but the ideology you claim to follow advocates a slow decay of these things. They advocate only as much freedom and individualism as the present political climate requires.



    I'm not talking about the split with the radical marxists, I'm talking about the split with the VVD.



    And progressive is just another word for cupcakes. Again, they were revolutionaries not reformists.



    See above.



    And a communist party, and the GreenLeft. I'm aware that there are many strings of socialism in the Netherlands.





    Many of the differences were silly. I'm not going to bother going through each one when you're likely to dismiss them anyways, but one example was:



    When socialists often mingled with science. Eugenics and social engineering went hand-in-hand with socialism in the late 19th - early 20th centuries. The "metaphysical" position is the one that denies these things on principle, despite the practical benefits of these programs for mankind.



    Good luck. Hopefully someday you'll come to a point where you're willing to examine the history of these things with an open mind.

    Who's your team BTW?



    I would, though I feel that conversion would be similar to: "he's not socialist because he doesn't want to completely dismantle private enterprise tomorrow" or "he doesn't advocate revolution."
    As said in my last post, you can keep on trying to right fight with someone who knows intimately what a social democrat is, you have your opinion that I do not share and I have my opinion based on what I know as a social democrat. I am not going to harp on with that because it will not achieve anything, you persist in your opinion and I am 100% sure of my opinion.

    My teams are the New England Patriots and the Buccaneers but I think this is an issue best discussed in the NFL thread.

    And no, I feel Obama is not a socialist because he does not embrace socialist policies, he does not even embrace or work towards social democratic policies. In the Netherlands Obama would most likely be a member of the D'66, a progressive liberal party.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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    Re: Obama Protesters Sing 'Bye Bye Black Sheep,' in AZ

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    It only takes one disgruntled Marine...
    Yes, indeed!

    Know Thine Enemy | National Review Online

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    Re: Obama Protesters Sing 'Bye Bye Black Sheep,' in AZ

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Free pass, no...but it's understandable considering what some conservatives had done to Gays.
    Why not what liberals have done to gays? Or gays have to done to gays? Or gays have done to others (some of that is really sick)?

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    Re: Obama Protesters Sing 'Bye Bye Black Sheep,' in AZ

    Quote Originally Posted by ZapFinch42 View Post
    I appreciate that response so thank you.
    My point as it related to Sarah Palin was that she made it very clear during her run in '08 that she was very serious about cutting funding for basic research which she deemed "useless" or a waste of time. The reason I asked what you did is that if you were in a science field you would have no excuse for sweeping that under the rug. However, I do not expect people from outside a STEM field to know exactly how all the research works so I won't hold it against you here. As an engineer we basically apply concepts discovered via basic scientific research to real world problems. Say applying research on the ability of plants to "search" for the ideal angle to gather sunlight to solar panel technology.

    Now the team or teams of scientists who originally carried out the plant research might not have even had that application in mind while they were working but that is where it proved useful. Basic research is rarely conducted, particularly at the university-level, with a specific application in mind. So cutting "useless" research is an incredibly stupid idea and is basically a death sentence to innovation.

    On the business end of it, the unavoidable truth is that Solyndra never should have gotten the grant money. From what I have seen they had basically no plan and no experience. With that said, I am not at all convinced that Barrack Obama himself is the one who made the decision to fund the company. Now I realize that as President, he is ultimately responsible for the money sent out under his policies but it is a little disingenuous to say it is his fault Solyndra wasted that money. The best way to fix that is to streamline the process of securing grant money making it easier for people with the experience and know-how to get the money they need.

    As far as McAuliffe, I don't see that that situation is related. It seems that this is more a case of shady businessmen that just happened to own a green energy company. Maybe you can share the connection you are drawing there.

    Oh and sorry about the Uncle Tom thing hahaha I definitely meant Uncle Sam. Posting at 3am while running on five cups of coffee does not make for coherent posts.
    You see, this is my issue. Some folks just believe what the press says, even though when politics are concerned, the press has proven to have an agenda. A quick search for quotes from Palin on alternative energy yielded this result:

    These notions are in keeping with Mr. Obama’s recently announced goal of doubling renewable energy in three years.

    They also put him in rare concert with his campaign opponent, Gov. Sarah Palin of Alaska, who just announced her own wind, geothermal, tidal and wave energy push. Momentarily parting ways with “drill, baby, drill,” the pro-oil refrain made popular during the Republican presidential campaign, Ms. Palin said last week that her oil- and gas-producing state will endeavor to get half its electricity from renewables by 2025.

    “This is huge, and it should be appreciated by all Alaskans,” she said at a press conference, according to the Juneau Empire.

    The move is part of the Alaska Energy Authority’s hefty energy plan, called “Alaska Energy: A First Step Toward Energy Independence” (PDF) — though it is more a study guide for communities than a state government action plan, according to The Empire.


    Renewable energy advocates were nonetheless pleased by the governor’s plan. “We’re very happy to see the administration moving this way,” said Chris Rose, executive director of the Renewable Energy Alaska Project, in an e-mail message to Green Inc. His organization noted that Alaska already gets about 25 percent of its electricity from dams.
    http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/...e-energy/?_r=0

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    Re: Obama Protesters Sing 'Bye Bye Black Sheep,' in AZ

    Quote Originally Posted by ItAin'tFree View Post
    Why not what liberals have done to gays? Or gays have to done to gays? Or gays have done to others (some of that is really sick)?
    I have no idea what your talking about. But here's what I was referring to....


    "...Ron Paul’s Iowa chair, Drew Ivers, recently touted the endorsement of Rev. Phillip G. Kayser, a pastor at the Dominion Covenant Church in Nebraska who also draws members from Iowa, putting out a press release praising “the enlightening statements he makes on how Ron Paul’s approach to government is consistent with Christian beliefs.” But Kayser’s views on homosexuality go way beyond the bounds of typical anti-gay evangelical politics and into the violent fringe: he recently authored a paper arguing for criminalizing homosexuality and even advocated imposing the death penalty against offenders based on his reading of Biblical law.

    Reached by phone, Kayser confirmed to TPM that he believed in reinstating Biblical punishments for homosexuals — including the death penalty — even if he didn’t see much hope for it happening anytime soon. While he said he and Paul disagree on gay rights, noting that Paul recently voted for repealing Don’t Ask Don’t Tell, he supported the campaign because he believed Paul’s federalist take on the Constitution would allow states more latitude to implement fundamentalist law. Especially since under Kayser’s own interpretation of the Constitution there is no separation of Church and State...."
    Death Penalty For Gays: Ron Paul Courts The Religious Fringe In Iowa | TPM2012


    And then there's this....


    The private member's bill was submitted by Member of Parliament David Bahati on 14 October 2009. Same-sex relationships are currently illegal in Uganda—as they are in many sub-Saharan African countries—punishable by incarceration in prison for up to 14 years. A special motion to introduce the legislation was passed a month after a two-day conference was held in which three American Christians asserted that homosexuality is a direct threat to the cohesion of African families. Several sources have noted endemic homophobia in Uganda has been exacerbated by the bill and the associated discussions about it.

    The bill divides homosexual behavior into two categories: "aggravated homosexuality", in which an offender would receive the death penalty, or "the offence of homosexuality" in which an offender would receive life imprisonment..."
    Uganda Anti-Homosexuality Bill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Oh and lets not forget the statistics of hate crimes against Gays exacerbated by conservative anti-gay rhetoric.....


    "...The recent wave of violent attacks against LGBT people in New York City has been startling. According to New York City police the number of antigay hate crimes has doubled from 14 to 29 as of May. In the LGBT community many people think of New York City as a place of acceptance and progressive attitudes, which is why these violent attacks are even more alarming. How does this compare to national data? According to the FBI’s Hate Crime’s Data the number of reported hate crimes overall is going down (e.g., 21% for African Americans since 1996), but hate crimes based on sexual orientation are not declining. In fact the number of reported anti-gay hate crimes rose slightly in 2011 to 1,553 from 1,443 in 1996. This means there are currently similar levels of anti-gay hate crimes as there are hate crimes based on religion (1,480), but about half those based on race (3,645). The majority (57%) were victims of an offender’s anti-male gay bias. Note that the FBI does not report statistics about anti-transgender hate crimes and that these data only represent hate crimes that are reported to the policy and then to the FBI...."
    Research Blog > Are Violent Hate Crimes Against LGBT People on the Rise? | IMPACT Program



    Thats what I meant by "it's understandable considering what some conservatives had done to Gays".

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    Re: Obama Protesters Sing 'Bye Bye Black Sheep,' in AZ

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Good one. So why he wasn't caught by the NSA?

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