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Thread: US releases prisoners from Guantanamo

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    Re: US releases prisoners from Guantanamo

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanddune View Post
    What I find absolutely amazing that even though you'll find few Americans who would still defend the Iraq war, some are still angry because of the German refusal to participate. .....
    Now that all those facts are visible to everyone, how can anyone still be shameless enough to accuse Germany of a lack of loyalty or commitment to "international security" for not participating in that unprovoked attack?
    I was not a question of lack of loyalty. That is a misunderstanding I hear a lot over here.

    It was more the fact that Saddam thought he could stay in power, exclude the UN inspectors and maintain the uncertainty of his arsenal. By backing him the war became much more probable and put Bush in a position, where he would have to back down after drawing a red line. That is something a country does only at high risk. When Saddam/Putin/Chirac/Schröder bluffed, Bush was forced to call it.

    That, in fact, was inexcusable. The German people probably did not understand the consequences and thought Schröder was standing up for some sort of "Good". Schröder, though, knew all this and one must assume he acted willfully to increase the chances of war.

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    Re: US releases prisoners from Guantanamo

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Western countries bound together after WWII to form a western block of peace and stability. This has been where the peace has come from, not shooting people in random places.

    A statement like that is really quite painfully lopsided.

    Peace and stability between 1945 and 1989 came about, because MAD worked. Since the structure has changed, we need another. There is no way, I can develop the whole gamut of thought for you here.

    Multipolarity is developing. That is essentially the structure of international security before 1945. As far as we know from game theory and history, this structure is instable and will breed periodic wars of smaller and greater size. The larger wars with today’s technology can easily cost a billion or more live. This was part of debate in the 1990s, as you will recall. You seem not to recall the conclusions drawn at the time. You can follow a good part of the discussion in old issues of Foreign Affairs Magazine if you like.

    You might agree with positions and conclusions and you may not. At least you will know them, however.

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    Re: US releases prisoners from Guantanamo

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Slice View Post
    I try to pull stories from neutral sources but this is still true.

    US releases prisoners from Guantanamo - Israel News, Ynetnews
    Apparently, the information Snowden recovered is having the desired extortion effect.

    Prisoners are being released from Gitmo, and the US gummint had to declare a bogus emergency (i. e. "al kida threat") to release detainees it was torturing in embassies.

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    Re: US releases prisoners from Guantanamo

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Slice View Post
    I try to pull stories from neutral sources but this is still true.

    US releases prisoners from Guantanamo - Israel News, Ynetnews
    They will be back and we will wonder why we didn't put a round between their eyes when we had the chance.

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    Re: US releases prisoners from Guantanamo

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    I was not a question of lack of loyalty. That is a misunderstanding I hear a lot over here.

    It was more the fact that Saddam thought he could stay in power, exclude the UN inspectors and maintain the uncertainty of his arsenal. By backing him the war became much more probable and put Bush in a position, where he would have to back down after drawing a red line. That is something a country does only at high risk. When Saddam/Putin/Chirac/Schröder bluffed, Bush was forced to call it.

    That, in fact, was inexcusable. The German people probably did not understand the consequences and thought Schröder was standing up for some sort of "Good". Schröder, though, knew all this and one must assume he acted willfully to increase the chances of war.
    Schröder, Chirac, and Putin were not on a team with Sadam just because they didn't support the idea of a US invasion. Can we get over that "if you're not with us you're against us" mentality? And as I'm sure you know, Saddam did not have any weapons of mass destruction, and the "evidence" was an American fake. The UN inspectors (you may remember the name Hans Blix) did NOT call for an attack on Iraq. It was an American decision to attack, and the WMDs were a pretext.
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    Re: US releases prisoners from Guantanamo

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanddune View Post
    What I find absolutely amazing that even though you'll find few Americans who would still defend the Iraq war, some are still angry because of the German refusal to participate. To get back to the historical facts, that war was justified with evidence of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction which was faked by the United States. It was not a defensive war, not even a preemptive war, but an American-led war of aggression. There was no genocide which was going to happen at that point, and no attack on any foreign country which Saddam's regime was about to launch.

    Now that all those facts are visible to everyone, how can anyone still be shameless enough to accuse Germany of a lack of loyalty or commitment to "international security" for not participating in that unprovoked attack? Should we be ashamed of not embracing "shock and awe" bombing tactics, not plunging a country into chaos, not having caused over 100 000 civilian deaths in Iraq? No, only for having secretly supported the US invasion of Iraq with intelligence.
    I think you would find more than a "few" American's that would still defend the Iraq war. It's just that many don't feel like listening to the phony vile spew from the left on the issue. You are real quick to say and accuse the US of faking evidence of weapons of mass destruction but for some reason (you are a liberal) you don't mention what Saddam himself owned up to before he was executed by his people. He deliberately wanted other countries to think he already had plenty of weapons of mass destruction and had taken steps to ensure they would think that. And never mind the Chemical Weapons found and the tons of yellow cake. And as far as an American led war of aggression under the treaty signed at the end of Gulf War 1, Iraq had clearly been the illegal aggressor when firing numerous times at US Military personnel. But for some reason, liberals don't like for people to talk about that or play it off as meaningless (even though US lives were at stake). Quite frankly, for you to pretend you know what attack Saddam was or was not planning next is absurd.

    However, it is perhaps time to rethink NATO. Since the end of WWII, the US has been left holding the bag for European security and they have reaped the majority of the benefit. We have as well but they got the best end of the deal. But when we needed a little extra help of our own in Iraq and Afgan, we got token help. Screw that.

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    Re: US releases prisoners from Guantanamo

    Quote Originally Posted by ItAin'tFree View Post
    I think you would find more than a "few" American's that would still defend the Iraq war. It's just that many don't feel like listening to the phony vile spew from the left on the issue. You are real quick to say and accuse the US of faking evidence of weapons of mass destruction but for some reason (you are a liberal) you don't mention what Saddam himself owned up to before he was executed by his people. He deliberately wanted other countries to think he already had plenty of weapons of mass destruction and had taken steps to ensure they would think that. And never mind the Chemical Weapons found and the tons of yellow cake. And as far as an American led war of aggression under the treaty signed at the end of Gulf War 1, Iraq had clearly been the illegal aggressor when firing numerous times at US Military personnel. But for some reason, liberals don't like for people to talk about that or play it off as meaningless (even though US lives were at stake). Quite frankly, for you to pretend you know what attack Saddam was or was not planning next is absurd.

    However, it is perhaps time to rethink NATO. Since the end of WWII, the US has been left holding the bag for European security and they have reaped the majority of the benefit. We have as well but they got the best end of the deal. But when we needed a little extra help of our own in Iraq and Afgan, we got token help. Screw that.
    The German government kept German troops in Afghanistan for over 10 years against the will of the majority of the population. And that war was carried on for several years even after it was proved to be useless. I appreciate what the US did for Europe but you can't start unjustified wars and then just expect all your allies to join them without even asking them if they agree with those wars. I don't like Saddam either but the fact that he was an evil dictator does not justify bombing the country unless he is about to commit a genocide or attack another country.

    You're right about the 1st Gulf War, Saddam was the bad guy there, but you forgot to point out that the US had massively supported Saddam's aggressive war on Iran, and been completely indifferent about his gassing of Kurds throughout the 1980s. When he started attacking Kuwait in 1991, that was not a change of policy, he simply turned into the other direction. And all of a sudden, the American government realized what an evil dictator he was, and condemned his aggression.
    Every day we should hear at least one little song, read one good poem, see one exquisite picture, and, if possible, speak a few sensible words.

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    Re: US releases prisoners from Guantanamo

    Quote Originally Posted by Sanddune View Post
    The German government kept German troops in Afghanistan for over 10 years against the will of the majority of the population. And that war was carried on for several years even after it was proved to be useless. I appreciate what the US did for Europe but you can't start unjustified wars and then just expect all your allies to join them without even asking them if they agree with those wars. I don't like Saddam either but the fact that he was an evil dictator does not justify bombing the country unless he is about to commit a genocide or attack another country.

    You're right about the 1st Gulf War, Saddam was the bad guy there, but you forgot to point out that the US had massively supported Saddam's aggressive war on Iran, and been completely indifferent about his gassing of Kurds throughout the 1980s. When he started attacking Kuwait in 1991, that was not a change of policy, he simply turned into the other direction. And all of a sudden, the American government realized what an evil dictator he was, and condemned his aggression.
    Aw geez, they were not allow to close with the enemy (you probably don't know what that means). Token support troops was the brunt of the German effort and if the majority of the Germans were against even that, it makes my point. Why should a single American risk his life another day for a German life when the favor won't be returned? It ain't worth it, the free ride for the Germans and the rest of the Europeans needs to end. Just about the only Europeans that have made a real effort in the war on terror came from former east block countries. They are not pussies like the rest of the Europeans and they know how to keep their word.

    Perhaps the US should have done more when Saddam gassed the Kurds. But I find it odd you would advocate doing anything about it because it doesn't phase you one bit that since the end of Gulf War 1 until the start of Gulf War 2 he had his people try to kill members of the US military on a routine basis. You and the other liberals always choose to ignore that. So the US should have gone to war with Iraq over the Kurds but not over it's service members? Does that make a lick of sense to you? That's what you have proposed in a round about way.

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    Re: US releases prisoners from Guantanamo

    Are there any new sources for this factoid yet?

    Either Congress was complicit or it was a crime.

    Taliban have decided to keep their mouth shut about the coup the pulled on the US?
    Imho, that doesn't jibe with my impression of them as eager to tout their successes to bolster the roles of recruits to their causes.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: US releases prisoners from Guantanamo

    Quote Originally Posted by ItAin'tFree View Post
    Aw geez, they were not allow to close with the enemy (you probably don't know what that means). Token support troops was the brunt of the German effort and if the majority of the Germans were against even that, it makes my point. Why should a single American risk his life another day for a German life when the favor won't be returned? It ain't worth it, the free ride for the Germans and the rest of the Europeans needs to end. Just about the only Europeans that have made a real effort in the war on terror came from former east block countries. They are not pussies like the rest of the Europeans and they know how to keep their word.

    Perhaps the US should have done more when Saddam gassed the Kurds. But I find it odd you would advocate doing anything about it because it doesn't phase you one bit that since the end of Gulf War 1 until the start of Gulf War 2 he had his people try to kill members of the US military on a routine basis. You and the other liberals always choose to ignore that. So the US should have gone to war with Iraq over the Kurds but not over it's service members? Does that make a lick of sense to you? That's what you have proposed in a round about way.
    What you don't realize is that the US with its wars is making the world a more dangerous and not a safer place. Do you really think the Iraq war, the Afghanistan war, the drone attacks in Pakistan, the disgusting conditions in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo have made the world a safer place? That idea is ludicrous.

    It's debatable whether Saddam's use of chemical weapons against Kurds would have justified a war in the 1980s. I don't know enough to tell. My point was that the US supported Saddam during his most evil time, so the idea that Iraq was attacked to liberate the people there from an evil dictator is pure hypocrisy.

    How many US servicemen got killed? And why did the US government have to produce faked evidence of WMDs to justify an attack if it was about defending US bases in the middle east?
    Every day we should hear at least one little song, read one good poem, see one exquisite picture, and, if possible, speak a few sensible words.

    Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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