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Thread: US releases prisoners from Guantanamo

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    Re: US releases prisoners from Guantanamo

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    How do you know it's true?
    Last I looked, this was the only source for this. There're other stories, but they all reference this story.
    If this was done, it was likely illegal. If Obama had done something illegal, I expect that there would be some people in Congress who would like for me to know about it. Yet, there has been no noise from Congress.

    So, how do you know it is true?
    How do you know it's not true?

    http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2...tion-transfers
    Last edited by Jon Slice; 08-01-13 at 07:05 PM.
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    Re: US releases prisoners from Guantanamo

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Slice View Post
    How do you know it's not true?
    I don't know that it's not true. That's why I did not claim that it wasn't true.
    Someone claimed that it was true. So I asked how they knew.

    The Ynet story is not sourced.
    There's good reason to believe that doing such a thing would incite Congress and could be a crime if done w/o Congress' approval.
    It would be a HUGE story.
    But, so far, there's just the one story (that I know about).

    Imho, even though that doesn't mean that the story is false, it is reason to be skeptical.
    Other people have a different opinion about whether that is enough to warrant skepticism and further inquiry. That's fine.

    You know that this article refers to an incident much different than what is described in the Ynet article, don't you?
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: US releases prisoners from Guantanamo

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Not all of the detainees were insurgents nabbed in afghanistan, but were random people nabbed because our government believed they were guilty of something. Either way, EVERYBODY deserves a trial, it is a basic human right. Hitler deserved a trial, and would have gotten one had he not killed himself. It clearly would have been insanely easy to prove his guilt, just like it should be insanely easy to prove the guilt of an actual terrorist.

    They avoid trials because they don't really have any evidence.
    Of course everybody deserves a trail. But sorrily we do not live in a perfect world. But the world is far from perfect and most countries hardly participate in efforts to keep it safe für civilians and trade, leaving the USA with the costes of maintaining safty and with the mess of cleaning up.

    Of course everybody deserves a trail. But sadly we do not live in a perfect world. But the world is far from perfect and most countries hardly participate in efforts to keep it safe für civilians and trade, leaving the USA with the costs of maintaining safety and with the mess of cleaning up.

    Take Germany. Among the countries of the world it profits most from open trade routs and dictators who abide by a minimum of restraint in robbing foreigners, it ist ahead of the pack with practically no resources and a huge trade surplus. It lives off of the safety of trade. It sends only few and ineffective forces, spends a trivial amount on military so that with a population of 80.000.000 it can put less than 9.000 Troups in the field. Like many countries around the world there is no help from that quarter. In the run up to the Iraq war Germany even made things worse by standing behind Saddam with Chirac and Putin thereby giving the dictator the feeling he could hold out against die UN inspection, which was a recipe for war. In Afghanistan they promised to educate Afghanis as police. They could not find German police for the job and for two years did nothing on the matter. The US took the job eventually pushing the Germans to help. A German born man of turkish decent was captured and put in Gitmo. Although the German government continuously lambasted the US on Gitmo the German government refused over a number of years to allow the man to come back to his family in Hamburg. etc.

    This is not just Germany and I use this example only because I live here and follow politics here very closely. But when all is said and done it has been the US with a very few close allies, that have been saddled with producing, what is economically a Public Good. Given the nature of Public Goods everybody can use them, once somebody produces them. This has been what many around the world have done.

    In this situation the costs are high for the US. There are the military costs for equipment and battle. But there are other costs that are often higher. When you take a couple of Thousands of prisoners, like sometimes happens, in a world without robust general safety, you have all sorts of problems. Your own courts demand high levels of proof, which cannot be attained in battle or from countries that made the arrest. Countries do not want their nationals back or the persons face brutality at home, that we just can't push them into. We can't bring them to the US, because the population would go ballistic. I mean the Saudis put a largish number of Gitmo people into rehab and found that most of them reverted to active terrorism.

    So here we are. Take no prisoners? That is presently the German stance after trying trails, which was a fiasco with the pirates claiming asylum in Hamburg and turning prisoners over to third world country prisons, where they found the prisoners average time till contracting HIV and tuberculosis war 6 weeks. Their ship off the horn of Africa no longer seems to be allowed to capture pirates.

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    Re: US releases prisoners from Guantanamo

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Of course everybody deserves a trail. But sorrily we do not live in a perfect world. But the world is far from perfect and most countries hardly participate in efforts to keep it safe für civilians and trade, leaving the USA with the costes of maintaining safty and with the mess of cleaning up.

    Of course everybody deserves a trail. But sadly we do not live in a perfect world. But the world is far from perfect and most countries hardly participate in efforts to keep it safe für civilians and trade, leaving the USA with the costs of maintaining safety and with the mess of cleaning up.

    Take Germany. Among the countries of the world it profits most from open trade routs and dictators who abide by a minimum of restraint in robbing foreigners, it ist ahead of the pack with practically no resources and a huge trade surplus. It lives off of the safety of trade. It sends only few and ineffective forces, spends a trivial amount on military so that with a population of 80.000.000 it can put less than 9.000 Troups in the field. Like many countries around the world there is no help from that quarter. In the run up to the Iraq war Germany even made things worse by standing behind Saddam with Chirac and Putin thereby giving the dictator the feeling he could hold out against die UN inspection, which was a recipe for war. In Afghanistan they promised to educate Afghanis as police. They could not find German police for the job and for two years did nothing on the matter. The US took the job eventually pushing the Germans to help. A German born man of turkish decent was captured and put in Gitmo. Although the German government continuously lambasted the US on Gitmo the German government refused over a number of years to allow the man to come back to his family in Hamburg. etc.

    This is not just Germany and I use this example only because I live here and follow politics here very closely. But when all is said and done it has been the US with a very few close allies, that have been saddled with producing, what is economically a Public Good. Given the nature of Public Goods everybody can use them, once somebody produces them. This has been what many around the world have done.

    In this situation the costs are high for the US. There are the military costs for equipment and battle. But there are other costs that are often higher. When you take a couple of Thousands of prisoners, like sometimes happens, in a world without robust general safety, you have all sorts of problems. Your own courts demand high levels of proof, which cannot be attained in battle or from countries that made the arrest. Countries do not want their nationals back or the persons face brutality at home, that we just can't push them into. We can't bring them to the US, because the population would go ballistic. I mean the Saudis put a largish number of Gitmo people into rehab and found that most of them reverted to active terrorism.

    So here we are. Take no prisoners? That is presently the German stance after trying trails, which was a fiasco with the pirates claiming asylum in Hamburg and turning prisoners over to third world country prisons, where they found the prisoners average time till contracting HIV and tuberculosis war 6 weeks. Their ship off the horn of Africa no longer seems to be allowed to capture pirates.
    I also live in Germany. Welcome to DP.

    Most of what you've written is based on a fundamentally flawed assumption. You assume that America rolling from country to country blowing up is somehow "securing trade" and making peace. I think Iraq and Afghanistan are the best examples of this. How could you possibly claim that either of those wars have done ANYTHING to stabilize the region or international trade? Iraq, for one, is worse off than they started. Their infrastructure is crippled, near a million of them are dead, and over 4,000 US soldiers are dead.

    Without a trial, you're giving the power to permanently imprison somebody to individuals' judgement. The reason a trial would be so "burdensome" is because the evidence didn't really exist in the first place. A lot of the things they use to nab these guys are circumstantial evidence and guilt by association. If there was real, tangible evidence of wrong-doing, it would not be hard to produce in court.

    Germany is thriving because they have a strong production oriented economy, and don't waste their resources on pointless wars. They grow from international trade. For instance, the company I work for is in the process of designing, manufacturing and delivering products to Iran. Their trade abilities have nothing to do with the American war machine.

    When you support the world view you do, you inevitably cheapen the very American ideals we were founded on. We've become the same monsters we're trying to fight, and we're not a single bit safer for doing so. A trial is a fundamental human right, and we are simply better than this.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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    Re: US releases prisoners from Guantanamo

    The sole remaining British inmate is complaining of being sexually aassaulted. By the guards. What is it with American prisons?
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    Re: US releases prisoners from Guantanamo

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I also live in Germany. Welcome to DP.

    Most of what you've written is based on a fundamentally flawed assumption. You assume that America rolling from country to country blowing up is somehow "securing trade" and making peace. I think Iraq and Afghanistan are the best examples of this. How could you possibly claim that either of those wars have done ANYTHING to stabilize the region or international trade? Iraq, for one, is worse off than they started. Their infrastructure is crippled, near a million of them are dead, and over 4,000 US soldiers are dead.
    Here I would say, that you take a flawed view of how security in a country and in the international community is produced. As within a country it is not the individual crime that is of impotence to security. What is important is that it as any other crime is seen to be punished. It is also wrong to assume that the immediate consequence of the acts necessary to maintaining security will be cost free or even beneficial to the environ of such acts. We tend to believe this because we live in relative safety and under circumstances, where a dependable police are available. This was quite different in the early days of the Republic and ist is quite different in cases, where a dictator must be removed or Warlords hold power.

    I do believe that both Afghanistan and Iraq were too expensive for the US and should prossibly have been carried out differently. But that is quite another question.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Without a trial, you're giving the power to permanently imprison somebody to individuals' judgement. The reason a trial would be so "burdensome" is because the evidence didn't really exist in the first place. A lot of the things they use to nab these guys are circumstantial evidence and guilt by association. If there was real, tangible evidence of wrong-doing, it would not be hard to produce in court.
    You make the same error here again. You may be able to have courts in the international theater, when and if a supra national organization enforces the security and safety of people the world over. Until countries like Russia and Germany are willing to take on "their fair share" of responsibility and costs? Forget it. Because it is asymmetric under present conditions it is too expensive and is thus counter productive. If you want rule of law internationally, get the major Countries to sign on to R2P. That is what the UN established it for. But as long as countries like Germany do not help, we will have wars, collateral damage and instinctless calls for law, where it will not work.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Germany is thriving because they have a strong production oriented economy, and don't waste their resources on pointless wars. They grow from international trade. For instance, the company I work for is in the process of designing, manufacturing and delivering products to Iran. Their trade abilities have nothing to do with the American war machine.

    When you support the world view you do, you inevitably cheapen the very American ideals we were founded on. We've become the same monsters we're trying to fight, and we're not a single bit safer for doing so. A trial is a fundamental human right, and we are simply better than this.
    Trade with Iran is a good example of the way Germany operates. There is a niche in Iran, as most other countries are trying to persuade Iran to stop building an atomic weapon or at least show the UN, that it is not doing so. Germany is undercutting this effort as it often does. Do you remember Auschwitz in the Sand. That was a similar case. So it is even worse, than I had pointed out. Germany is not only a free rider. It is also destructive. Its trade with Iran strengthens the regime as German trade with the East prolonged the Cold War. In the honest world with enforced law and courts such behavior would be criminal for every person to profit from it.

    As for the cheapening of ideals, what you say is hogwash. Any set of high values relies on force, without which the high values are pipe dreams and leave everybody at the mercy of bandits.

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    Re: US releases prisoners from Guantanamo

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    I don't know that it's not true. That's why I did not claim that it wasn't true.
    Someone claimed that it was true. So I asked how they knew.

    The Ynet story is not sourced.
    There's good reason to believe that doing such a thing would incite Congress and could be a crime if done w/o Congress' approval.
    It would be a HUGE story.
    But, so far, there's just the one story (that I know about).

    Imho, even though that doesn't mean that the story is false, it is reason to be skeptical.
    Other people have a different opinion about whether that is enough to warrant skepticism and further inquiry. That's fine.

    You know that this article refers to an incident much different than what is described in the Ynet article, don't you?
    Yes, I know the second link is different. I read them prior to posting. I've been reading ynet for years and have never known of them carrying a false story. Also, Why would they source a story like that? They would never again get info from that source. It is also being carried by some pretty reputable outlets, all linking back to ynet like you stated, but reputable at least above CNN/NBC standards.
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    Re: US releases prisoners from Guantanamo

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Slice View Post
    Yes, I know the second link is different. I read them prior to posting. I've been reading ynet for years and have never known of them carrying a false story. Also, Why would they source a story like that? They would never again get info from that source. It is also being carried by some pretty reputable outlets, all linking back to ynet like you stated, but reputable at least above CNN/NBC standards.
    As I previously noted:
    "Other people have a different opinion about whether that is enough to warrant skepticism and further inquiry. That's fine."

    It seems that if the report were true, then either Congress has approved it in secret, or they have decided to give Obama a pass on breaking the law.
    One could also surmise that the Taliban themselves have also agreed to keep it hush-hush. Otherwise they would trumpet the return of their comrades to w/e international press would be willing to listen.
    It seems like getting back some senior guys from the US would be a coup of sorts for them.

    But that's all empty speculation rather than factual determination.

    If the story is true, I doubt that it will remain singly sourced for long. Again, just my humble speculation.
    Last edited by Simon W. Moon; 08-02-13 at 10:33 AM.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: US releases prisoners from Guantanamo

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Here I would say, that you take a flawed view of how security in a country and in the international community is produced. As within a country it is not the individual crime that is of impotence to security. What is important is that it as any other crime is seen to be punished. It is also wrong to assume that the immediate consequence of the acts necessary to maintaining security will be cost free or even beneficial to the environ of such acts. We tend to believe this because we live in relative safety and under circumstances, where a dependable police are available. This was quite different in the early days of the Republic and ist is quite different in cases, where a dictator must be removed or Warlords hold power.

    I do believe that both Afghanistan and Iraq were too expensive for the US and should prossibly have been carried out differently. But that is quite another question.
    Aha, so you're trying to pin our random wars in third world countries like Iraq and Afghanistan is somehow the reason we have relative global peace? I think you drastically underestimate the former power of both countries. What really has been the source of peace has been international trade and cooperation. Western countries bound together after WWII to form a western block of peace and stability. This has been where the peace has come from, not shooting people in random places.

    If you'd like to make some specific arguments with sources about how the Iraq and Afghanistan wars have (or could have) made us safer, I'm all ears. These generalized statements with no backing however don't hold up.


    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    You make the same error here again. You may be able to have courts in the international theater, when and if a supra national organization enforces the security and safety of people the world over. Until countries like Russia and Germany are willing to take on "their fair share" of responsibility and costs? Forget it. Because it is asymmetric under present conditions it is too expensive and is thus counter productive. If you want rule of law internationally, get the major Countries to sign on to R2P. That is what the UN established it for. But as long as countries like Germany do not help, we will have wars, collateral damage and instinctless calls for law, where it will not work.
    LOL, yes, by not killing enough people with us, countries like Russia and Germany are the reason the world is a dangerous place. If only they had helped us more in our wars we'd be riding rainbows and eating unicorn meat right now.

    More conjecture on your part.


    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Trade with Iran is a good example of the way Germany operates. There is a niche in Iran, as most other countries are trying to persuade Iran to stop building an atomic weapon or at least show the UN, that it is not doing so. Germany is undercutting this effort as it often does. Do you remember Auschwitz in the Sand. That was a similar case. So it is even worse, than I had pointed out. Germany is not only a free rider. It is also destructive. Its trade with Iran strengthens the regime as German trade with the East prolonged the Cold War. In the honest world with enforced law and courts such behavior would be criminal for every person to profit from it.

    As for the cheapening of ideals, what you say is hogwash. Any set of high values relies on force, without which the high values are pipe dreams and leave everybody at the mercy of bandits.
    Iran hasn't attacked another country in over 200 years. We can't go 5 days without attacking somebody. You really can sit there with a straight face and tell me Iran is the aggressor? The relationship between Iran and Germany is a LOT better than between the US and Iran. Making diplomatic ties and trading freely is what brings peace. Threatening people to do what we tell them is not peace.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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    Re: US releases prisoners from Guantanamo

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    In the run up to the Iraq war Germany even made things worse by standing behind Saddam with Chirac and Putin thereby giving the dictator the feeling he could hold out against die UN inspection, which was a recipe for war.
    What I find absolutely amazing that even though you'll find few Americans who would still defend the Iraq war, some are still angry because of the German refusal to participate. To get back to the historical facts, that war was justified with evidence of Iraqi weapons of mass destruction which was faked by the United States. It was not a defensive war, not even a preemptive war, but an American-led war of aggression. There was no genocide which was going to happen at that point, and no attack on any foreign country which Saddam's regime was about to launch.

    Now that all those facts are visible to everyone, how can anyone still be shameless enough to accuse Germany of a lack of loyalty or commitment to "international security" for not participating in that unprovoked attack? Should we be ashamed of not embracing "shock and awe" bombing tactics, not plunging a country into chaos, not having caused over 100 000 civilian deaths in Iraq? No, only for having secretly supported the US invasion of Iraq with intelligence.
    Last edited by Sanddune; 08-05-13 at 11:18 AM.
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