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Thread: F.B.I. says it doesn't need warrant to use drones

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    Re: F.B.I. says it doesn't need warrant to use drones

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and
    effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall ...

    "Be secure" means you have a right to be protected from searches and seizures without probable cause (case law) or warrant. "Persons" means your body and the clothes you are wearing, "effects" means possessions or property. If the government can not search your body and clothes, your home, your papers or your possessions without probable cause or a warrant, they you have a right to privacy. I don't think that is ambiguous.
    The 4th is the privacy rights, explicitly stated. Papers and effects includes digital information, any record relating to me, service contract, etc. What needs to be done is that the 4th needs to be brought back to life and respected.
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    Re: F.B.I. says it doesn't need warrant to use drones

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    Back a long time ago when i studied this sort of case law it seems they pretty much need some sort of physical barrier because even when cops walked around private property they were able to use plain sight rules. I am pretty sure if it is visible while out in public you are screwed. The places where you actually have privacy in a legally protected sense are very small.
    Since I said "away from public view" I think we mean the same thing.

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    Re: F.B.I. says it doesn't need warrant to use drones

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Does a cop need a warrant to walk around and look at things.
    Yes, if it requires entering private property without permission.
    That was a dodge. Entering private property is entirely different than surveiling a public place

    A drone flying at legal height for manned aircraft is probably a legal search.

    A drone flying at a lower level (than a manned aircraft can) and peeping in windows and otherwise seeing things that can not be seen by a manned aircraft or from the street should require a warrant.

    In addition to the privacy issue, there will also be noise, safety and other nuisance issues if drones proliferate. We may even see corporate drones following you from the store to your home to spy on your consumption and lifestyle for marketing purposes if we don't limit their use severely.
    AFAIK the height the drone is flying at doesn't raise any legal issues

    And if they make a lot of noise, that would kind of defeat the purpose, no?
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    Re: F.B.I. says it doesn't need warrant to use drones

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    ...AFAIK the height the drone is flying at doesn't raise any legal issues...
    The height should matter if the drone can do things, such as look through windows, that a manned aircraft can't do.

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    Re: F.B.I. says it doesn't need warrant to use drones

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    The height should matter if the drone can do things, such as look through windows, that a manned aircraft can't do.
    Well, maybe it should, but as far as I know, it doesn't under current law
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

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    Re: F.B.I. says it doesn't need warrant to use drones

    Not sure why drones would be any different than any other type of camera in a public place.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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    Re: F.B.I. says it doesn't need warrant to use drones

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Well, some delusional people think that a Stasi is antithesis to freedom...

    But how else are we supposed to protect our freedom if we don't abolish freedom??
    That has nothing to do with Rand Paul seemingly having no idea what the laws are.

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    Re: F.B.I. says it doesn't need warrant to use drones

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and
    effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall ...

    "Be secure" means you have a right to be protected from searches and seizures without probable cause (case law) or warrant. "Persons" means your body and the clothes you are wearing, "effects" means possessions or property. If the government can not search your body and clothes, your home, your papers or your possessions without probable cause or a warrant, then you have a right to privacy. I don't think that is ambiguous.
    You're ignoring the sentence as a whole and leaving out the gemaine "against unreasonable searches and seizures". This is NOT privacy but a restriction on what the governement can use against you in court.

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    Re: F.B.I. says it doesn't need warrant to use drones

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    You're ignoring the sentence as a whole and leaving out the gemaine "against unreasonable searches and seizures". This is NOT privacy but a restriction on what the government can use against you in court.
    As I mentioned, unreasonable searches and seizures means without probable cause or a warrant. Although this amendment has been used to prevent illegally obtained evidence from being used in court, there is nothing in the language that limits the scope of the amendment to court room evidence. The only thing lacking is a federal law implementing enforcement measures (that I know of). However, cops have been disciplined, and police departments successfully sued, due to their unreasonable searches and seizures, even when the seized evidence was not used in court.

    The fourth amendment defines a right to privacy from government snooping as clearly as possible without actually using the word privacy. Most court decisions agree with my understanding of the fourth amendment.

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    Re: F.B.I. says it doesn't need warrant to use drones

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    As I mentioned, unreasonable searches and seizures means without probable cause or a warrant. Although this amendment has been used to prevent illegally obtained evidence from being used in court, there is nothing in the language that limits the scope of the amendment to court room evidence. The only thing lacking is a federal law implementing enforcement measures (that I know of). However, cops have been disciplined, and police departments successfully sued, due to their unreasonable searches and seizures, even when the seized evidence was not used in court.

    The fourth amendment defines a right to privacy from government snooping as clearly as possible without actually using the word privacy. Most court decisions agree with my understanding of the fourth amendment.
    As stipulated, the courts do agree with your take. However, this does not make a privacy right, just restrains government from searching for some information in some ways without a warrant. Relying upon the 4th for privacy means we're restricted to the privacy the courts think the 4th confers at the time of their decision. That's not good enough.

    Further, by not doing it the right way (through amendment), we further allow the court to travel the broken road it's been on - interpretting in new language to the Constitution.

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