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Thread: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

  1. #161
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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    No, because it didn't answer the question.
    Simple dodge.

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    You keep ignoring that Jesus was the son of god himself, who healed the sick and called a dead man forth from his tomb. I imagine that such a fellow was pretty persuasive, hence the converts. We, on the other hand:

    1) Are but poor facsimiles, so we can't be expected to be as persuasive
    2) We do not know the future, so we don't know who might at some point in the future repent
    3) We can not see into the hearts of men, so an unrepentant sinner looks much the same as one who would like to repent but thinks they're beyond salvage.
    Who said a unrepentant sinner could not come back if they truly did repent? At that point they can be forgiven. We are not talking about people who are repentant. Let's be honest here. We are talking about homoseuxals. Most have chosen to stay with the lifestyle. this is not a comment on if it's a choice or not, just as it involves sin. If they continue to practice homsexuality, they are not repentent. End of story. Now if later on they decide to become celibate or something like that. Then in that case they are repentant and could be welcomed into the fold. You do not let in someone who is unrepentant in the hope they will change as it will probably not happen. In the case of sexual attraction even less of a chance.

    You are basically saying let in everyone even if practicing sin in the hope they will convert. No such silliness exists in the Bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    As such, the closest we could follow his example is to leave the door open and serve as a good example to all. You can't be that example if you turn those who most need your example away.
    The most needed will come when called, and only then. It's called faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    No, it didn't. I asked a specific question and you failed time after time to answer it.
    I will repeat it again since you want to ignore it...

    Jesus wrote not one single word in the Bible, not one. So you are willing to trust the Apostles to write down what he said, but nothing else. Yes that makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    No, but I'm speaking to and about people who did trust the Apostles to write down what he said, so for the sake of the discussion I've assumed that they got it right.
    And that they got everything else wrong. Absolutely understood. This is why your argument continues to fail.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  2. #162
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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Manta View Post
    Simple dodge.
    Yeah, damn, screw me for focusing on the question I actually asked, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Manta View Post
    Who said a unrepentant sinner could not come back if they truly did repent? At that point they can be forgiven.
    We aren't talking about forgiveness, though. Of course you have to repent to get that. We're talking about allowing them to show up and maybe just maybe be influenced by what they see and hear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Manta View Post
    We are not talking about people who are repentant. Let's be honest here.
    We are talking about people who you think are not repentant. You can't see hearts and you can't see the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Manta View Post
    We are talking about homoseuxals.
    No, we're talking about those who you think are not repentant. Or at least those are the words you keep returning to. Let's not move the goal-posts now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Manta View Post
    You are basically saying let in everyone even if practicing sin in the hope they will convert. No such silliness exists in the Bible.
    I'm saying you can't serve as an example or invite sinners to repent if you keep them away from you. If your argument was that it's reasonable for a church to keep out those would disrupt proceedings or are a threat to the congregation, okay, I could see what you mean, but that isn't what you're saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Manta View Post
    The most needed will come when called, and only then. It's called faith.
    How do you know they aren't being called to show up and see the way they should be living?

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Manta View Post
    I will repeat it again since you want to ignore it...

    Jesus wrote not one single word in the Bible, not one. So you are willing to trust the Apostles to write down what he said, but nothing else. Yes that makes sense.
    I didn't ignore it. Please do not lie about me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Manta View Post
    And that they got everything else wrong. Absolutely understood. This is why your argument continues to fail.
    They were people with their own opinions. That's why I asked for the words of Jesus Christ. Since, you know, we're talking about Christian churches.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

  3. #163
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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    Yeah, damn, screw me for focusing on the question I actually asked, right?
    Hey not my fault you don't know your Bible.

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    We aren't talking about forgiveness, though. Of course you have to repent to get that. We're talking about allowing them to show up and maybe just maybe be influenced by what they see and hear.
    Again you are confused. An unrepentant sinner either...

    a. Believes they are not sinning and think it's OK even though the Bible says different.
    b. Someone who knows it's wrong but does not care.

    How would letting them be members of the church change anything?

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    We are talking about people who you think are not repentant. You can't see hearts and you can't see the future.
    No we are not. This has nothing to do with me or my view. This is what the Bible says. Stop making this about me. It has nothing to do with me or my beliefs.

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    No, we're talking about those who you think are not repentant. Or at least those are the words you keep returning to. Let's not move the goal-posts now.
    Again I am simply stating what the Bible says. This is not about me. Get that into your head.

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    I'm saying you can't serve as an example or invite sinners to repent if you keep them away from you. If your argument was that it's reasonable for a church to keep out those would disrupt proceedings or are a threat to the congregation, okay, I could see what you mean, but that isn't what you're saying.
    I AGAIN am not saying anything. The Bible says this is what we as Christians are supposed to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    How do you know they aren't being called to show up and see the way they should be living?
    A gay couple shows up to church. Attends a couple of services and remain a gay couple. At what point would you consider them unrepentant? 1 day? 1 week? 1 year? They actually have laws set down in the Bible for this situation. If they continue to do what they are doing after counseling etc, they are cast out.

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    I didn't ignore it. Please do not lie about me.
    I apologies.

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    They were people with their own opinions. That's why I asked for the words of Jesus Christ. Since, you know, we're talking about Christian churches.
    The Apostles where tasked with setting up the "churches" and given all authority in God's name according to Christ. Sorry you can't wiggle your way out of that with your nonsense. Either you accept they are telling the truth, or they are lying and everything is suspect.

    Again this is why your argument continues to fail.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  4. #164
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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Manta View Post
    Again you are confused. An unrepentant sinner either...

    a. Believes they are not sinning and think it's OK even though the Bible says different.
    b. Someone who knows it's wrong but does not care.

    How would letting them be members of the church change anything?
    The same way that hanging out in the wrong places or with the wrong people leads to bad choices or behaviors.

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Manta View Post
    No we are not. This has nothing to do with me or my view. This is what the Bible says. Stop making this about me. It has nothing to do with me or my beliefs.
    Okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Manta View Post
    The Apostles where tasked with setting up the "churches" and given all authority in God's name according to Christ. Sorry you can't wiggle your way out of that nonsense. Either you accept they are telling the truth, or they are lying and everything is suspect.

    again this is why your argument continues to fail.
    Okay, let's say the apostles had all that authority. As best I could tell, none of the quotations of theirs you pointed me to prohibits an unrepentant sinner from entering a place of worship, or tells the faithful to bar access to places of worship.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

  5. #165
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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    It depends on how they're doing it..

    If they're aggressive towards me I will knock them out - as I would any individual that is aggressive towards me.

    I don't go out and look for trouble but many single issue idiots do.
    If someone was "aggressive" about Jesus, would you attack them?

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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    I hope he enjoys his eternal suffering that is so painful we can't imagine it on earth. Hell is no joke.

    God judges sin, homosexuality isn't the only sin out there. People that wrongfully divorce, commit adultery, lust, and a myriad of other forms of sexual sin will also be judged for it. Truth of the matter is that we've all sinned and unless we repent we will have to be judged for it which means to be sent to hell for eternity. Desmond Tutu is ignorant and has no idea the level of suffering that awaits unless they repent.
    I think it's ridiculous to think that a loving and merciful God would send people to eternal hell for simply not believing in the right thing. Makes no sense for God to do, but it does make sense for people to make that stipulation up in order for them to gain membership into their religion.
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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    Or willfully deceived as are many Christians that want to go with the world, reject truth, and approve of homosexuality. Doesn't matter what they think, when stacked with Biblical truth they are wrong, and the majority of the time their conclusion is based on selfish motives because they want homosexuality to not be a sin (and one person's beliefs/wants does not change those of God's). If he professes to be a Bible believing Christian yet ignores or tries to contort the Bible to say that God approves of homosexuality then he is ignorant and likely willfully deceived.
    How do you know YOU aren't the one being willfully deceived?
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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    The same way that hanging out in the wrong places or with the wrong people leads to bad choices or behaviors.
    I don't know. Again only going by what the Bible says.

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    Okay, let's say the apostles had all that authority. As best I could tell, none of the quotations of theirs you pointed me to prohibits an unrepentant sinner from entering a place of worship, or tells the faithful to bar access to places of worship.
    If they are told to bar them from their homes and not even offer a greeting, food, etc? Do you think God's house would be any more appropriate?

    I understand what you are saying, but if something is a known quantity as opposed to unknown. I will err on the biblical side every time. In other words if the church does not know, I don't think biblically any problem would exist. If they did however...

    Immorality makes a church unclean...

    1 Corinthians 5:1–8 5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    6 Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? 7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

    Immorality Must Be Judged by men...

    9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner— not even to eat with such a person.
    12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”


    Like I said I see your point, the Bible however is clear.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 07-28-13 at 06:52 PM. Reason: Minor spelling correction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  9. #169
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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    I think it's ridiculous to think that a loving and merciful God would send people to eternal hell for simply not believing in the right thing. Makes no sense for God to do, but it does make sense for people to make that stipulation up in order for them to gain membership into their religion.
    That is the whole point Your Star. It was and is about believing and doing the right thing according to God's law.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    How do you know YOU aren't the one being willfully deceived?
    We may be. We however have faith in Christ's teachings. I will err on the side of God & Christ every time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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