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Thread: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

  1. #141
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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    You mean like many of the Christians on DP who want to remain sick in their poor treatment of people who disagree with them? You mean like Christians - including you - who hope that people go to Hell? I agree. That's toxic and it can infect others. Let's get rid of them and keep the gay guys.
    Ummm... No. You see I don't have to lie about what anyone said to make a point. I addressed that in the rest of the post you ignored and cut out so you could reply out of context. Intellectually dishonest at best. Then in the process you drag me off topic for what amounts to nothing really worth responding to.

    Please point out were I said I hope people go to hell? Got anything other than untrue personal attacks? As for your opinion, you are entitled even if ridicules and over the top.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  2. #142
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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Manta View Post
    No. Absolutely wrong. The Bible says no such thing.

    Matthew 7:1-5 “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

    It means for example if you are an adulterer you cannot sit there and claim someone else is and not be judged for it as well. It is saying you must clear your own sin before judging someone else. This is because you will be judged accordingly.
    Sure, if you go in for oversimplified readings that give you the loophole you need to do what you want. "Hey, I'm not a murderer, so I can judge someone else for being a murderer!" Are you without sin? No? Then you might want to think twice before denying someone else entry into the house of god on the basis of their sin.

    What right do you have to deny any sinner access to fellowship, guidance, and ultimately the strength to seek the forgiveness that everyone is entitled to?
    Last edited by TacticalEvilDan; 07-28-13 at 01:38 PM.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

  3. #143
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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    Sure, if you go in for oversimplified readings that give you the loophole you need to do what you want.
    Loophole to do what you want? It's the exact opposite. No loopholes in anything I said.

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    "Hey, I'm not a murderer, so I can judge someone else for being a murderer!"
    Yes. Otherwise we would be morons incapable of making any kind of decisions.

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    Are you without sin? No? Then you might want to think twice before denying someone else entry into the house of god on the basis of their sin.
    I am not denying anyone anything. I am however pointing out what the Bible says. Something you may want to read if you want to make accurate statements based on it rather than what you want. Or tell someone else how their religion works.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  4. #144
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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Manta View Post
    Loophole to do what you want? It's the exact opposite. No loopholes in anything I said.
    You're treating the direction not to judge a license to judge by whichever standard you like provided that you pass muster according to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Manta View Post
    Yes. Otherwise we would be morons incapable of making any kind of decisions.
    There is a significant difference between deciding whether you're going to be friends or business partners with a murderer and whether or not you will deny them access to a house of worship and all that comes with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Manta View Post
    I am not denying anyone anything.
    We were discussing my very firm belief that churches which deny entry because of sin are not Christian, and your disagreement with that belief. Don't be obtuse. Jesus sought out lost sinners specifically for the purpose of reclaiming them and demonstrating the necessity of this to those who came after him, so who are his followers to deny such sinners access to a house of worship on the basis of their sin?

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Manta View Post
    I am however pointing out what the Bible says.
    Well then, by all means, point out where Jesus clearly stated that it was okay to deny someone access to the fellowship and guidance of a gathering of Christians -- not heaven, because we're not talking about heaven -- on the basis of their sins.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

  5. #145
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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    For anyone else who would like to disparage my character or accuse me of nonsense...

    First off let me say being "gay" is not a sin, no place does the New or Old Testament say it is. This is not an attack on homosexuals nor is it a condemnation of homosexuality as we are all sinners.

    Romans 3:10-11 10 As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.

    According to the Old Testament sodomy is considered a sin or being ritually unclean. According to recent surveys roughly 67% to 80% of male homosexuals practice sodomy.

    Leviticus: Lv. 18:223: "You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It
    is an abomination."


    20:13: "If a man lies with a male as with a woman,
    both of them have committed an abomination. They shall surely be put to
    death."


    Lesbianism or acts of lesbianism not not even mentioned in the Old Testament in any form. Going by the original text and Jewish interpretation it is not even considered fornication or adultery as it involves no penetration by the male phallus.

    Everything in the OT covering sexual uncleanliness or sin seems to revolve around penetration by the male phallus and nothing else.

    In the New Testament sexual acts involving men with men and women with women are defined clearly. Even when taking into account translation errors from the Greek, it is plain in it's condemnation of said acts. It goes beyond merely the male phallus and calls then "unnatural" etc.

    1 Cor 6:9-10: "Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom
    of God? Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolators, nor the effeminate,
    nor those who lie with males...will inherit the kingdom of God."


    Romans 1:26-27: "For this reason God handed them over to dishonorable
    passions, and their women exchanged their natural use for the unnatural.
    And similaly the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned with
    desire for one another, males working impropriety on males, and receiving
    in themselves the pay which was proper for their wandering."


    1 Tim 1:9-10: "Knowing this,that the law is not there for the righteous
    man, but for lawless ones...sexually loose, those who lie with males...."


    Jude 7: "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which
    likewise acted immorally and indulged in unnatural lust, serve as an
    example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire."


    Being gay is not a sin, but according to the OT sodomy is. According to the NT all sexual acts out of wedlock are a sin including homosexuality in or out of wedlock. Jesus himself said even thinking or contemplating an act forbidden is a sin.

    Mark 9: 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

    Now Jesus laid down and defined that marriage is about a man and a woman, period. In reference he was talking about divorce, this does not however negate him defining what marriage is supposed to be according to God in the Biblical sense.

    Mark 10:9-12But from the beginning of creation, 'God made them male and female.' 7 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8 and the two shall become one flesh.' So they are no longer two but one flesh. 9 What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder." 10 And in the house the disciples asked him again about this matter. 11 And he said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another, commits adultery against her; 12 and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery."

    So how can a Christian church marry two men or woman when it is clearly against the Bibles commands? How can a pastor, priest etc condone it?

    I believe gay marriage should be accepted in our secular society as law. Equal treatment under the law is to important.

    What I don't understand is how Christian's can ignore entire swaths of the Bible when it is clear on what is and is not permissible.
    I wrote that over 2 years ago at this website. So don't even try to sit there and accuse me of...

    Disparaging gays, Persecuting gays, not allowing them rights or any such nonsense.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 07-28-13 at 02:10 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  6. #146
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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    You're treating the direction not to judge a license to judge by whichever standard you like provided that you pass muster according to it.
    No. I am judging by what the Bible say's, period.

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    There is a significant difference between deciding whether you're going to be friends or business partners with a murderer and whether or not you will deny them access to a house of worship and all that comes with it.
    Then talk to God, his law is pretty clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    We were discussing my very firm belief that churches which deny entry because of sin are not Christian, and your disagreement with that belief. Don't be obtuse. Jesus sought out lost sinners specifically for the purpose of reclaiming them and demonstrating the necessity of this to those who came after him, so who are his followers to deny such sinners access to a house of worship on the basis of their sin?
    And if they cannot be saved or are unrepentant, they are to be separated from. Again the Bible is very clear. We are not even to let them into our home, or knowledge them. What does this tell you?

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    Well then, by all means, point out where Jesus clearly stated that it was okay to deny someone access to the fellowship and guidance of a gathering of Christians -- not heaven, because we're not talking about heaven -- on the basis of their sins.
    I never said anything about based on anyone's sin. Nice try though.

    I said unrepentant sinners who have turned away from Christ.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  7. #147
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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Getting back to TuTU, it's funny... Supposedly according to scripture we will not have a physical body. So sex will not be an issue as we would be spiritual beings, not physical. With no need to breed, it would not be an issue as no one will have a sex to begin with.

    He would know this. So I think his comment is more about the treatment of gays by society and around the world. I mean look at what is going on in Africa and Russia. Any Christian who condones that is not much of a Christian.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  8. #148
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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Manta View Post
    No. I am judging by what the Bible say's, period.

    Then talk to God, his law is pretty clear.

    And if they cannot be saved or are unrepentant, they are to be separated from. Again the Bible is very clear. We are not even to let them into our home, or knowledge them. What does this tell you?

    I never said anything about based on anyone's sin. Nice try though.

    I said unrepentant sinners who have turned away from Christ.
    Actually, you said, "So unrepentant sinners that we are as Christians told in no uncertain terms to keep a distance from..."

    Go ahead, point out where Jesus clearly stated that it was okay to deny someone access to the fellowship and guidance of a gathering of Christians -- not heaven, because we're not talking about heaven -- on the basis of their sins. I'll even tack on unrepentant or otherwise, so that you'll actually answer the question.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

  9. #149
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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    Actually, you said, "So unrepentant sinners that we are as Christians told in no uncertain terms to keep a distance from..."
    Yes. Why are you repeating what I corrected you on? I know I said it and never denied this.

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    Go ahead, point out where Jesus clearly stated that it was okay to deny someone access to the fellowship and guidance of a gathering of Christians -- not heaven, because we're not talking about heaven -- on the basis of their sins. I'll even track on unrepentant or otherwise, so that you'll actually answer the question.
    I posted 3 verses directly in this thread to you...

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1062114778

    Now we can get back on topic I assume?
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  10. #150
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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Manta View Post
    Yes. Why are you repeating what I corrected you on? I know I said it and never denied this.
    You tried to rephrase what you said, I was just recalling your words to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Manta View Post
    I posted 3 verses directly in this thread to you...

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1062114778

    Now we can get back on topic I assume?
    In order: Jesus, on the subject of the last judgement, not on turning away unrepentant sinners; John; Paul. None of those are an answer to my question, especially seeing as how Jesus never said two of them and the first was dealing with a whole other subject.

    But yes, by all means, forget all about the question if it pleases you.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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