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Thread: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

  1. #111
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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckBerry View Post
    I can't seem to find a link to the details of the bishop's remarks, but let me say that I think his position is likely a smidge more complex than is being made out here.

    Desmond Tutu's remarks need to be seen through the lens of his fight against apartheid and the injustice black people suffered from decades of South African law. I would guess that Tutu's eyes are not focused solely on marriage rights, but on worldwide discrimination including the death penalty for homosexuality in some places.

    In principle I agree with the statements he has been quoted with that have been made widely available. If, however, he approves of homosexuality (which is different from merely not being homophobic), my stance would differ from his. But again, he has seen the depths of injustice inflicted on a powerless minority, so I am willing to give him some latitude for extending his feelings toward genuine persecution of homosexuals.
    Life is always more complex than we make it out to be in mere conversation. Well put.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

  2. #112
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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    You are mistaken. The Bible makes it extraordinarily clear that judgement in matters of sin is reserved for god exclusively.


    It depends on what you mean by "judge".

    God judges who gets into heaven, not I.
    God "judges" in the sense of giving blessings or punishment in life for who did this or that, not I.
    However, if I (or whoever) points out that "The bible says that is a sin," that is not judgment. I'm not pulling this out of my pocket, this is Biblical stuff.

    As for whether X-person-who-does-Y is welcome in The Church of Z, as I mentioned there are some differing schools of thought on that... one of which Black Manta is talking about, where there is emphasis on the Biblical injunctions to "suffer not such a one among you", "light has no fellowship with darkness", and so on. There's another side which promotes more engagement and some of what you're saying is similar to what that side says, about Jesus' hanging out with sinners, "the son of man has come to save that which is lost", and so on.

    I'm just pointing out that there are different viewpoints on this, that both sides have theological arguments, and that "judging" isn't really the issue here.

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  3. #113
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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Manta View Post
    No he's not. He is preaching a biblical lie. Saying oh I would rather be with unrepentant sinners is wrong from a Christian perspective according to our holy book.
    That is your opinion, not fact.

    BTW, if God doesn't like gays, he should not create people to be homosexual.

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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    Sin isn't a matter for men to judge, repentance or no repentance. I thought the Bible was pretty clear about that.
    Yep, and didn't Jesus hang out with sinners?

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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Feeling superior this evening?
    Why should tonight be any different than any other night?

    Seriously, there's quite a bit written about this and there is a really good documentary on it, too. If you're interested and have Netflix, I can PM it to you.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
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    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Read more @ : Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    I tend to agree. If my God is a God who dislikes someone base on who they are attracted to, and who they love then i would not like to be in that place with a god that is supposedly "all knowing and all loving" .[/INDENT]
    Hope he gets and air conditioned room!

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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    If god is a bigot, creates people gay, and then punishes them for being the way he made them, then god is an evil sadist and the universe is an awful place. If god creates people, creates them flawed, and then punishes them for being flawed, then god is an evil sadist and the universe is an awful place. If god knows everything, and sets up tests for us, then he already knows whether or not we will pass, and has essentially decided already what will happen, because he creates us and creates us a certain way, and then punishes us for failing tests that he designed us to fail and already knew whether or not we would fail before decided to test us, then god is an evil sadist and the universe is an awful place.

    An omniscient creator who judges and punishes us for being the way he made us means that there is absolutely no change for free will. At all. None. Zilch. The entire notion of "sin" and judgment is inherently flawed and unworthy of being the basis for any discussions of morality. Causing needless pain and suffering in people is immoral. Discriminating against and hurting gays because of... whatever... is wrong. End of discussion. No one should give a crap what some ancient book says about it. Especially one that employs such obvious logical fallacies and contradictions to justify its backwards and ignorant positions.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    Nope, because I also said, "Sin isn't a matter for men to judge, repentance or no repentance."
    #1 I am not trying to score anything.
    #2 What you also said has nothing to do with your original statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    If you're going to try to score points by quoting me back to myself, at least read what I say. I stand by my words.
    Now instead of defending something that did not need defending. You might want to respond to my point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

  9. #119
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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    If god is a bigot, creates people gay, and then punishes them for being the way he made them, then god is an evil sadist and the universe is an awful place. If god creates people, creates them flawed, and then punishes them for being flawed, then god is an evil sadist and the universe is an awful place. If god knows everything, and sets up tests for us, then he already knows whether or not we will pass, and has essentially decided already what will happen, because he creates us and creates us a certain way, and then punishes us for failing tests that he designed us to fail and already knew whether or not we would fail before decided to test us, then god is an evil sadist and the universe is an awful place.

    An omniscient creator who judges and punishes us for being the way he made us means that there is absolutely no change for free will. At all. None. Zilch. The entire notion of "sin" and judgment is inherently flawed and unworthy of being the basis for any discussions of morality. Causing needless pain and suffering in people is immoral. Discriminating against and hurting gays because of... whatever... is wrong. End of discussion. No one should give a crap what some ancient book says about it. Especially one that employs such obvious logical fallacies and contradictions to justify its backwards and ignorant positions.
    Here is another scenario. God creates people and people choose to be gay and choose to reject god. Some will repent and all will be judged by God. Including you Paschendale.
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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    Yep, which is why any church that has a policy of turning away sinners it believes is unrepentant is not a Christian church. I suppose one or two could be turned away in error and it could be chalked up to human fallibility, but consistently turning them away? No, that's not Christian
    You are going to sit in judgement of the church without really understanding the motive and claim they are judging?

    Pot meet kettle.

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    So long as they don't disrupt the service, I can't think of a reason in the world why you'd turn them away.
    Because you don't follow the scripture...

    Revelation 2:16-18: 16 ‘So turn away from your sins! If you don’t, I will come to you soon. I will fight against those people with the sword that comes out of my mouth.

    2 John 1:10 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting

    Romans 16:1717 I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them.


    It's pretty clear.
    Last edited by Black Dog; 07-28-13 at 01:18 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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