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Thread: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    Calling something sin is definitely a theological question. The rest of it is not. Furthermore, it would seem to me that someone whose relationship with god is not healthy (or at least not as healthy) is just the kind of someone a church would welcome with open arms, since that's exactly the kind of person Jesus would have tried to embrace and heal, no?

    that's one way of looking at it yes... but it isn't the only school of thought, and both sides can present their own theological backing, which makes for a complicated discussion.


    Without getting into all that (a doctoral level theological dissertation), I'm just pointing out that it isn't simply a matter of being personally judgmental, but also of theological issues.

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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    Sin isn't a matter for men to judge, repentance or no repentance. I thought the Bible was pretty clear about that.
    It most certainly is a matter for men to judge. Otherwise Jesus would not have died for us. You have not read the Bible then as it is clear we are to avoid sin and sinners.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    I can't seem to find a link to the details of the bishop's remarks, but let me say that I think his position is likely a smidge more complex than is being made out here.

    Desmond Tutu's remarks need to be seen through the lens of his fight against apartheid and the injustice black people suffered from decades of South African law. I would guess that Tutu's eyes are not focused solely on marriage rights, but on worldwide discrimination including the death penalty for homosexuality in some places.

    In principle I agree with the statements he has been quoted with that have been made widely available. If, however, he approves of homosexuality (which is different from merely not being homophobic), my stance would differ from his. But again, he has seen the depths of injustice inflicted on a powerless minority, so I am willing to give him some latitude for extending his feelings toward genuine persecution of homosexuals.
    The morality of abortion is not a religious belief, any more than the morality of slavery, apartheid, rape, larceny, murder or arson is a religious belief. These are norms of the natural law of mankind and can be legislated even in a completely religionless society.

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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckBerry View Post
    I can't seem to find a link to the details of the bishop's remarks, but let me say that I think his position is likely a smidge more complex than is being made out here.

    Desmond Tutu's remarks need to be seen through the lens of his fight against apartheid and the injustice black people suffered from decades of South African law. I would guess that Tutu's eyes are not focused solely on marriage rights, but on worldwide discrimination including the death penalty for homosexuality in some places.

    In principle I agree with the statements he has been quoted with that have been made widely available. If, however, he approves of homosexuality (which is different from merely not being homophobic), my stance would differ from his. But again, he has seen the depths of injustice inflicted on a powerless minority, so I am willing to give him some latitude for extending his feelings toward genuine persecution of homosexuals.

    A thoughtful and well-considered reply

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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckBerry View Post
    I can't seem to find a link to the details of the bishop's remarks, but let me say that I think his position is likely a smidge more complex than is being made out here.

    Desmond Tutu's remarks need to be seen through the lens of his fight against apartheid and the injustice black people suffered from decades of South African law. I would guess that Tutu's eyes are not focused solely on marriage rights, but on worldwide discrimination including the death penalty for homosexuality in some places.

    In principle I agree with the statements he has been quoted with that have been made widely available. If, however, he approves of homosexuality (which is different from merely not being homophobic), my stance would differ from his. But again, he has seen the depths of injustice inflicted on a powerless minority, so I am willing to give him some latitude for extending his feelings toward genuine persecution of homosexuals.
    Here are some of his remarks and an explanation of their context: Desmond Tutu: 'I would not worship a God who is homophobic' - Africa - World - The Independent

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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckBerry View Post
    I can't seem to find a link to the details of the bishop's remarks, but let me say that I think his position is likely a smidge more complex than is being made out here.

    Desmond Tutu's remarks need to be seen through the lens of his fight against apartheid and the injustice black people suffered from decades of South African law. I would guess that Tutu's eyes are not focused solely on marriage rights, but on worldwide discrimination including the death penalty for homosexuality in some places.

    In principle I agree with the statements he has been quoted with that have been made widely available. If, however, he approves of homosexuality (which is different from merely not being homophobic), my stance would differ from his. But again, he has seen the depths of injustice inflicted on a powerless minority, so I am willing to give him some latitude for extending his feelings toward genuine persecution of homosexuals.
    Well said. I agree with the highlighted part 100%.
    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Benjii likes the protests...he'd be largely irrelevant without them. So he needs to speak where he knows there will be protests against him and that makes him responsible for the protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You can successfully wipe your ass with toilet paper, that doesn't mean that you should.

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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Manta View Post
    That is not what you said...

    Those which don't aren't Christian churches. - TacticalEvilDan

    You are confusing sinner with unrepentant sinner.
    Nope, because I also said, "Sin isn't a matter for men to judge, repentance or no repentance."

    If you're going to try to score points by quoting me back to myself, at least read what I say. I stand by my words.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Manta View Post
    We are not Jesus. We try to emulate, but we are not him.
    Yep, which is why any church that has a policy of turning away sinners it believes is unrepentant is not a Christian church. I suppose one or two could be turned away in error and it could be chalked up to human fallibility, but consistently turning them away? No, that's not Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Manta View Post
    We are by your standards to accept devil worshipers. No, it is just stupid.
    So long as they don't disrupt the service, I can't think of a reason in the world why you'd turn them away.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    that's one way of looking at it yes... but it isn't the only school of thought, and both sides can present their own theological backing, which makes for a complicated discussion.


    Without getting into all that (a doctoral level theological dissertation), I'm just pointing out that it isn't simply a matter of being personally judgmental, but also of theological issues.
    Given the openness with which Jesus embraced the more obvious sinners, I don't see how it's either complex or a theological issue, but if you think another setting (or a thesis ) would be a more appropriate setting, that's cool.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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    Re: Desmond Tutu Would Prefer Hell Over A Homophobic Heaven

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Manta View Post
    It most certainly is a matter for men to judge. Otherwise Jesus would not have died for us. You have not read the Bible then as it is clear we are to avoid sin and sinners.
    You are mistaken. The Bible makes it extraordinarily clear that judgement in matters of sin is reserved for god exclusively.
    I'm already gearing up for Finger Vote 2014.

    Just for reference, means my post was a giant steaming pile of sarcasm.

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