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Federal court halts Christian prayers at North Carolina county meetings [W:656]

apdst said:
You'te not rewuired to participate. You can walk out of the room until the prayer is over. You're denying people the right of freedom of religion because YOU don't agree with it. BTW, the Constitution DOES mention freedom of religion, unlike the seperation of church and state.
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There is no freedom you are being denied. that is a complete and bold faced lie. If you wish to do something then you can leave the room. If you wish everyone else in the room alter their work so you can do something that is a load of BS and you are just trying to force your practices on everyone out of spite and hate. Take your spiteful fascism to another country that forces it's people to pray. You are completely free to pray on your own without forcing everyone else to stop what they are doing so you can pray. The whole world does not need to get put on hold because you wish it.
 
Henrin said:
So you're going to use the "you don't need to do it" argument. I don't need to do a lot of things, but that doesn't mean I don't have the right to do it.
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It's not a you have to do it argument. It's the "you're forcing your beliefs on me" argument. If you want to pray. Go for it. You just don't have the right to do it at government functions, official school functions, anymore than I have the right to start telling people about evolution at a church during their functions. This is why separation of C&S is crucial. If you don't want the government meddling in your private religious affairs. Don't meddle in government affairs with your religion.
 
Mr.Nick said:
One could take either position however, I'm not petty like you so I wouldn't be one to complain over being docked 60 seconds of pay for a prayer. I suppose if that were to happen a person could make a big deal about it and claim their civil rights are being violated. I wouldn't personally make a big deal about it.

If I owned a business I wouldn't dock pay out of religious spite -- you probably would tho.
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if i hired you to do a job and it is not praying then you are there to work. I would dock someone or fire them for playing a video game for entertainment, and I would dock you for playing with your imaginary friend for entertainment. You are at a job to work. You get provided breaks and you are free to do whatever you want on your time. It is amazing how lazy some people are that they would use their faith as some piss poor excuse to avoid work.
 
I love how these pseudo libertarians claim that I must take a secular position on the First Amendment in order to be a "real" libertarian.....

I wouldn't be a "real" libertarian if I didn't acknowledge and protect religious freedom. I wouldn't be a real libertarian if I didn't acknowledge that people have the RIGHT to choose not to partake in a prayer.

I support an individuals right to pray.

I support an individuals right not NOT pray.

There is no "gray area" here... You do or you don't.
 
After reading this thread i should start a religion whose prays by shouting profanity at the top of their lungs. Then all these people who want prayer time will have to deal with swearing at loud volumes, or deal with discrimination suits. Hey, we have to deal with your prayers so you can deal with ours. Any time you want to show some respect for other people in the world you can take yourself out of where other people are doing work and pray on your own time.
 
tererun said:
if i hired you to do a job and it is not praying then you are there to work. I would dock someone or fire them for playing a video game for entertainment, and I would dock you for playing with your imaginary friend for entertainment. You are at a job to work. You get provided breaks and you are free to do whatever you want on your time. It is amazing how lazy some people are that they would use their faith as some piss poor excuse to avoid work.
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Well you would probably get sued for discrimination and civil rights violations. Furthermore you have no idea if someone is praying or working because you cant read minds - not to mention I wouldn't expect someone like you to endorse prayer at the beginning of a workday so your entire point is moot. You know because group prayers are generally led and endorsed by those in charge.
 
Hatuey said:
It's not a you have to do it argument. It's the "you're forcing your beliefs on me" argument. If you want to pray. Go for it. You just don't have the right to do it at government functions, official school functions, anymore than I have the right to start telling people about evolution at a church during their functions. This is why separation of C&S is crucial. If you don't want the government meddling in your private religious affairs. Don't meddle in government affairs with your religion.
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No one is forcing their beliefs on you. When someone prays at a government function they are not pushing their beliefs on you. They are just having a little prayer that you don't have to take part in.
 
Mr.Nick said:
I love how these pseudo libertarians claim that I must take a secular position on the First Amendment in order to be a "real" libertarian.....

I wouldn't be a "real" libertarian if I didn't acknowledge and protect religious freedom. I wouldn't be a real libertarian if I didn't acknowledge that people have the RIGHT to choose not to partake in a prayer.

I support an individuals right to pray.

I support an individuals right not NOT pray.

There is no "gray area" here... You do or you don't.
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No one around here is saying people cannot pray. I do not see anyone around here saying people cannot pray if they want to. they are just saying you cannot organize everyone to prayer like is being done. So you sir are lying.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Separation of church and state, not endorsing a religion.
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Unless you consider the state being pro gay marriage. That's certainly an ideology, and is against many religions (as well as being against the religion portion of the first amendment of the Constitution).
 
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Hatuey said:
It's not a you have to do it argument. It's the "you're forcing your beliefs on me" argument. If you want to pray. Go for it. You just don't have the right to do it at government functions, official school functions, anymore than I have the right to start telling people about evolution at a church during their functions. This is why separation of C&S is crucial. If you don't want the government meddling in your private religious affairs. Don't meddle in government affairs with your religion.
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I still don't understand precisely how a prayer to a god one doesn't believe in is forcing anything. If you don't believe in the god, then you don't believe in the power of the prayer. If you don't believe in the power of the prayer, then it's just a meaningless exercise to you. Nothing has been "forced".
 
tererun said:
There is no freedom you are being denied. that is a complete and bold faced lie. If you wish to do something then you can leave the room. If you wish everyone else in the room alter their work so you can do something that is a load of BS and you are just trying to force your practices on everyone out of spite and hate. Take your spiteful fascism to another country that forces it's people to pray. You are completely free to pray on your own without forcing everyone else to stop what they are doing so you can pray. The whole world does not need to get put on hold because you wish it.
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Do you not understand that denying an individual prayer is denying an individual his/her civil right to freedom of religion??

YOU would be breaking the ****ing law --- what don't you understand about that????

People can pray wherever the hell they want considering prayer isn't specified in the First Amendment..
 
Mr.Nick said:
Well you would probably get sued for discrimination and civil rights violations. Furthermore you have no idea if someone is praying or working because you cant read minds - not to mention I wouldn't expect someone like you to endorse prayer at the beginning of a workday so your entire point is moot. You know because group prayers are generally led and endorsed by those in charge.
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You can sue for all you want, i can fire you for not doing your job. If it is a right to work state i can fire you for any reason i wish. I don't care if you are praying or goofing off in the corner. if it is not your break you get to work. Oh, and in some cases admitting you are incapable of working the job you were hired for is a great way to lose unemployment benefits.
 
Mr.Nick said:
One could take either position however, I'm not petty like you so I wouldn't be one to complain over being docked 60 seconds of pay for a prayer. I suppose if that were to happen a person could make a big deal about it and claim their civil rights are being violated. I wouldn't personally make a big deal about it.

If I owned a business I wouldn't dock pay out of religious spite -- you probably would tho.
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So basically I was right and the employer is not forced to pay for prayer.....like I've been saying all along. Thank you for your concession. You're obvious personal attack about being petty is irrelevant to the topic and shows sour grapes on your part.
 
Henrin said:
No one is forcing their beliefs on you. When someone prays at a government function they are not pushing their beliefs on you. They are just having a little prayer that you don't have to take part in.
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By my very presence there, I do have to take part in it. :shrug:
 
Mr.Nick said:
Do you not understand that denying an individual prayer is denying an individual his/her civil right to freedom of religion??

YOU would be breaking the ****ing law --- what don't you understand about that????

People can pray wherever the hell they want considering prayer isn't specified in the First Amendment..
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Denying prayer and not paying for prayer are two different things.
 
Hatuey said:
By my very presence there, I do have to take part in it. :shrug:
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No, you just have to sit there. Play something on your iphone when they are taking a minute to pray, or just do whatever.
 
Mr.Nick said:
Do you not understand that denying an individual prayer is denying an individual his/her civil right to freedom of religion??
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Again, you are a liar who is making stuff up because no one said you could not pray. They just said you cannot organize it at town meetings.
Mr.Nick said:
YOU would be breaking the ****ing law --- what don't you understand about that????
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There is no law that says people have to pray before a meeting. Such a law would be unconstitutional. You are a liar.
Mr.Nick said:
People can pray wherever the hell they want considering prayer isn't specified in the First Amendment..
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No one is saying you cannot do that, just that you cannot organize people to prayer as a part of a government event. Liar liar pants on fire. No litterally because if you are chrstian you are going to hell for bearing false witness which is a sin.
 
tererun said:
No one around here is saying people cannot pray. I do not see anyone around here saying people cannot pray if they want to. they are just saying you cannot organize everyone to prayer like is being done. So you sir are lying.
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The hell they're not.... Show me where in the First Amendment it says individuals can only pray at X,Y and Z and only at X,Y,Z times???

You sir are just inventing "conditions" for prayer....

I really don't give a **** when you believe it's an appropriate time to pray - thats up to the person/people praying - NOT YOU. You're not the prayer police.
 
Henrin said:
No, you just have to sit there. Play something on your iphone when they are taking a minute to pray, or just do whatever.
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You are forcing people to sit there which is forcing them to participate in some way. No one wants to sit through your prayers, so keep it on your time.
 
tererun said:
You are forcing people to sit there which is forcing them to participate in some way. No one wants to sit through your prayers, so keep it on your time.
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You are there anyway, so...
 
Mr.Nick said:
The hell they're not.... Show me where in the First Amendment it says individuals can only pray at X,Y and Z and only at X,Y,Z times???
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you are lying no one said that.
Mr.Nick said:
You sir are just inventing "conditions" for prayer....
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you are lying no one said that.
Mr.Nick said:
I really don't give a **** when you believe it's an appropriate time to pray - thats up to the person/people praying - NOT YOU. You're not the prayer police.
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You can pray any time you want, you just cannot organize public events put on by the state to prayer.
 
Henrin said:
You are there anyway, so...
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So you would be ok with "other" religions have "their" prayer heard as well right? I mean 1 minute for Chritianity, 1 min for Buddhist, etc. right? Or is it that only Christianity is allowed to have the floor? Aren't they denying the religious freedom of others by not allowing them in?
 
TheNextEra said:
So you would be ok with "other" religions have "their" prayer heard as well right? I mean 1 minute for Chritianity, 1 min for Buddhist, etc. right? Or is it that only Christianity is allowed to have the floor? Aren't they denying the religious freedom of others by not allowing them in?
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I don't see why I would care to deny anyone. :shrug:
 
TheNextEra said:
So you would be ok with "other" religions have "their" prayer heard as well right? I mean 1 minute for Chritianity, 1 min for Buddhist, etc. right? Or is it that only Christianity is allowed to have the floor? Aren't they denying the religious freedom of others by not allowing them in?
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I don't care who it is, the state cannot force people into prayer of any sort. They cannot stop them from praying on their own, but they can also not force them and organize prayer. It does not belong there in any form, and iof you give the religious zealots and inch they will take the whole state.
 
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