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Federal court halts Christian prayers at North Carolina county meetings [W:656]

tererun said:
Because the prayer is part of their free time and not a part of the job. Why are we paying for them to pray on our dime?
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Really, of all the things you could complain paying for you are going to complain about prayer? Are you actually paying for it? Does this even extend the meeting? If it is, but why amount is extending the meeting? A normal prayer doesn't last an excellency long period of time, so what, like a minute? So it like another whole minute of electricity being used. Wow, what a solid complaint you have there.

Oh right, they lost like a whole minute of time they could spending on passing something no one wants.

Why am i being forced to sit there and watch? Here is the problem, if they do it on their time and show up early no one is inconvenienced for something they do not want to be a part of. They can pray to god as they wish, and i do not need to be a part of it. Everyone gets what they want. You feel that for some reason people who are not religious, or people who are religious and do not practice that particular faith should be forced to be a part of christian prayer time. Should you have to wait for muslims to get their mats out and pray to the east? Should you have to sit through a buddhist meditation? Should you have to wait for wiccans to have a ceremony to the goddess?
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What exactly is the harm other than you don't want to sit there and watch? So far you keep going over and over again about how you don't want to sit and watch, but that doesn't describe a harm, but just something you don't want to see. I don't want to see all the ugly people on the street, but I'm not going to cry about them being ugly as sin being some horrible bane on my existence.

This is a load of crap because you and every other religious person knows that people have to be forced to pray. That is why you want it at schools and in public meetings. You want those people to have to take a moment to give respect to your god.
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<----Atheist. I'm just not a douche that feels it's so horrible people are taking a moment to pray.

Feel free to do it on your own time and I will deal with it. Do not include me in your BS. You are lying and making stuff up that people do not want to deal with you praying. They simply do not want to pray with you, and perhaps you should figure that out because supposedly the christian god doesn't like it when you lie.
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No one is making you pray. You showed up for work and they decided to pray. That is basically all there is to it.
 
Henrin said:
Really, of all the things you could complain paying for you are going to complain about prayer? Are you actually paying for it? Does this even extend the meeting? If it is, but why amount is extending the meeting? A normal prayer doesn't last an excellency long period of time, so what, like a minute? So it like another whole minute of electricity being used. Wow, what a solid complaint you have there.



What exactly is the harm other than you don't want to sit there and watch? So far you keep going over and over again about how you don't want to sit and watch, but that doesn't describe a harm, but just something you don't want to see. I don't want to see all the ugly people on the street, but I'm not going to cry about them being ugly as sin being some horrible bane on my existence.



<----Atheist. I'm just not a douche that feels it's so horrible people are taking a moment to pray.



No one is making you pray. You showed up for work and they decided to pray. That is basically all there is to it.
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tererun believes his "right" to not be offended trumps the First Amendment..
 
Mr.Nick said:
Praying is a civil liberty protected by the First Amendment of the Bill of Rights. If you don't like it then get a job where people don't pray before work.
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There are limits as well to the first amendment. I don't think this should be a federal court case, but I do believe this should be a state case (if the state wants to pursue it) in which the state gets to decide if they should PAY people to pray on state time.

This is being done as "official" state business, so if the state wants to pay people to pray on their dime, that is their choice. However, it is the state's choice on the matter and shouldn't be a federal issue IMO.
 
Josie said:
As a public school teacher, if a few of us get together every morning to pray for our kids, are we endorsing a religion?
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If you're not doing it in an official school function, no. You're not. If you're doing it an official function, yes, you are. You don't get paid to preach. You get paid to teach.
 
TheNextEra said:
There are limits as well to the first amendment. I don't think this should be a federal court case, but I do believe this should be a state case (if the state wants to pursue it) in which the state gets to decide if they should PAY people to pray on state time.

This is being done as "official" state business, so if the state wants to pay people to pray on their dime, that is their choice. However, it is the state's choice on the matter and shouldn't be a federal issue IMO.
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Since when are civil liberties voided because someone is being paid???

Since when can the state override civil liberties??

Using your logic the government has every right to raid employees homes, tap their phones, search their personal computers, hijack their homes, steal their guns, limit their speech, or pretty much lock them in a cell indefinitely without due process if they want to.. All because they work for the government.
 
Hatuey said:
If you're not doing it in an official school function, no. You're not. If you're doing it an official function, yes, you are. You don't get paid to preach. You get paid to teach.
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Since when are civil liberties suspended because one happens to be at a "school function?"

Just as long as people aren't forced to pray under law then people can pray if they want.
 
Mr.Nick said:
Since when are civil liberties voided because someone is being paid???
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Hey my religion requires I pray once every hour for 30 min, pay me.

Mr.Nick said:
Since when can the state override civil liberties??
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Again, payment for prayer is not a right.

Mr.Nick said:
Using your logic the government has every right to raid employees homes, tap their phones, search their personal computers, hijack their homes, steal their guns, limit their speech, or pretty much lock them in a cell indefinitely without due process if they want to.. All because they work for the government.
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Yeah, because not paying someone to pray is the same as those. :roll: Try again, you're boring me.

BTW, this doesn't apply to just state and federal but ALL jobs. No job is required to pay you for prayer.
 
Hatuey said:
If you're not doing it in an official school function, no. You're not. If you're doing it an official function, yes, you are. You don't get paid to preach. You get paid to teach.
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That is absolutely assine. If Josie and fellow teachers pray for their students they aren't endorsing anything outside of themselves. The students are not present, they are not involved, and they are completely unaware their teachers prayed for them. To even suggest they are affected is nonsense of the highest order.

Are you guys seriously so scared of religion that you have to block teachers from praying amongst themselves?
 
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TheNextEra said:
Hey my religion requires I pray once every hour for 30 min, pay me.



Again, payment for prayer is not a right.



Yeah, because not paying someone to pray is the same as those. :roll: Try again, you're boring me.

BTW, this doesn't apply to just state and federal but ALL jobs. No job is required to pay you for prayer.
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Really??? so is taking 5 minutes at the water cooler a right? really? you should get back to work..

Funny how no one gets pissed when Muslims pray (who pray 5 times a day I might add) yet they only get bent when Christians take 1 fricking minute for a prayer....

Hell, I got to church and when we silently pray we don't pray for 5 minutes - we pray for 1 minute tops.

Now, if you find prayer so repulsive than maybe we can dock employees who choose to pray 1 minute of pay per day...

I find your argument petty, tyrannical and intolerant.
 
Caine said:
Saying a prayer is not akin to endorsing a religion.

Granted they shouldn't be mentioning a specific religion, I agree....

I just fail to see how this is a big deal.
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This is a big deal because it is very rare in this country when a court comes down on the side of the US Constitution.

Mostly, courts just rule in favor of the government.

As a supporter of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, I'm very happy with this ruling.
 
Henrin said:
That is absolutely assine. If Josie and fellow teachers pray for their students they aren't endorsing anything outside of themselves.

The students are not present, they are not involved, and they are completely unaware their teachers prayed for them.

Are you guys seriously so scared of religion that you have to block teachers from praying amongst themselves?
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If you knew how to comprehend what you read, you'd realize how asinine* your comment actually is. If they're praying at an official school function, they are officially endorsing a religion for the school. If they're not an official school function, no they're not.

Teachers getting together and praying is not an official school function. You do know this right? If the school gets together for a rally and then the teachers initiate a prayer, they are at an official school function. You do know this right? Only idiots who didn't get past primary would not realize the difference between official school functions and people just getting together to pray.
 
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Mr.Nick said:
Since when are civil liberties suspended because one happens to be at a "school function?"
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Your civil liberties stop when mine begin. You don't have a right to spread your religion through a school function. :shrug:
 
Hatuey said:
If you knew how comprehend what you read, you'd realize how asinine* your comment actually is. If they're praying at an official school function, they are officially endorsing a religion for the school. If they're not an official school function, no they're not.
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Oh look, I misspelled something. The terror! I like how it didn't affect you at all on understanding me and yet you still felt it necessary to point out as if your point wasn't strong enough without it.

Since she only mentioned her and fellow teachers praying that is what I dealt with and that is all I needed to deal with. As for where it takes place, again, that makes no difference at all. This idea that separation of church and state actually exists and that it exists to the point where people aren't even able to pray is taking everything way to damn far to the point of paranoia and stupidity. The state is there to permit liberty, not restrict it due to some stupid fear that prayer will happen around children and this is somehow bad.
 
Since when are civil liberties suspended because one happens to be speaking against the actions of politicians?

from Tennessee
Two opposed to prayers at Hamilton County Commission meetings escorted out

Two residents who publicly oppose opening prayers at Hamilton County Commission meetings were escorted out of Thursday's session.

One of the men was sitting quietly in his seat when he was taken out of the commission room by a deputy sheriff.

Aaron Moyer was speaking out about the prayers during the 10-minute public comment period when Chairman Larry Henry asked him to sit down.

Moyer instead raised his voice and defied Henry's request, and the chairman called a deputy to return Moyer to his seat.

The other man, Tommy Coleman, who filed a federal lawsuit last month against commissioners over the public prayers, was sitting quietly in the audience during the interaction, but was escorted out.
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Hatuey said:
Your civil liberties stop when mine begin. You don't have a right to spread your religion through a school function. :shrug:
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Your civil liberty to what? Not hear a prayer? If that is the case then I declare I have the civil liberty to not see ugly people.
 
Hatuey said:
Your civil liberties stop when mine begin. You don't have a right to spread your religion through a school function. :shrug:
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Sorry, not being offended is NOT a civil liberty.

You don't have a right NOT to be exposed to religion. YOU HAVE A CHOICE, if you don't agree with prayer then don't associate with religious folk and don't work where people pray... No one is forcing you.

Using your logic I should have the RIGHT NOT to be exposed to progressive ideas.. You know what? I don't hang out with progressives and I don't work with progressives you know why? because I don't agree with their bull**** and I don't want to hear it so I exercise my right to not associate with them...

Pretty simple eh?
 
Might be possible the anti-religious mutual masturbation society celebration is like so many things...premature. The ruling didnt say they couldnt pray. It said they could offer specific secular prayer. It would be rather difficult for a state or local government body to be denied a prayer prior to session when that is occurring daily in the federal government legislative body.
 
Henrin said:
Oh look, I misspelled something. The terror! I like how it didn't affect you at all on understanding me and yet you still felt it necessary to point out as if your point wasn't strong enough without it.
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I just laughed at the sheer irony of trying to call a post asinine when you didn't even know what the post was discussing to begin with or even comprehended what it was about. That's what is really asinine about the whole situation. The fact that you horribly butchered the word is just sauce on top.

Since she only mentioned her and fellow teachers praying that is what I dealt with and that is all I needed to deal with.
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If you had comprehended what I wrote, instead of going into self righteous Libertarian mode, you'd have realized that so did I. She asked for clarification on the matter and I provided it. If you're getting together with teachers at a unofficial gathering of teachers, it's fine. If you're getting together at some official gathering of the school, no it's not. I'm sorry your asinine attempt to respond failed so terrible.

As for where it takes place, again, that makes no difference at all. This idea that separation of church and state actually exists and that it exists to the point where people aren't even able to pray is taking everything way to damn far to the point of paranoia and stupidity.
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Who said anything about where it takes place? I guess this is the second part of your asinine response not understanding what is being said. A physical location doesn't make a difference. The situation is what makes a difference. An atheist student may have the choice to not attend events where prayers are held (ex: certain rallies, classes etc). The same goes for Muslim students, Jewish students, Hindu students etc. So to summarize the thread and rid you of the asinine ignorance on what is being discussed:

1. Teachers getting together to pray: Fine. They don't have to be around students.
2. Teachers having prayer sessions at official school functions: Not fine.
3. Location: Unimportant. They can pray where they want to.
4. Event: Important. See 1 & 2.

Separation of church & state certainly exists in a secular government. That you don't think it does is laughable.
 
Somerville said:
Since when are civil liberties suspended because one happens to be speaking against the actions of politicians?

from Tennessee
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If someone is going to "act out" in protest they will be removed like any "protester" would from any meeting for causing a disturbance (people are removed from public townhall meetings/council meetings all the time for causing disturbances) however, that one man who was allegedly sitting quietly should have been left alone.....

The worlds not perfect and people get thrown out of events all the damn time for unwarranted reasons.. You have to blame the security here not civil liberties.
 
Mr.Nick said:
Sorry, not being offended is NOT a civil liberty.

You don't have a right NOT to be exposed to religion. YOU HAVE A CHOICE, if you don't agree with prayer then don't associate with religious folk and don't work where people pray... No one is forcing you.

Using your logic I should have the RIGHT NOT to be exposed to progressive ideas.. You know what? I don't hang out with progressives and I don't work with progressives you know why? because I don't agree with their bull**** and I don't want to hear it so I exercise my right to not associate with them...

Pretty simple eh?
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Or in other words, if I don't like christian prayers at a public meeting that might affect my life, I shouldn't bother to show up and voice my opposition. Is that what you are saying? Because it sure reads that way

Certainly looks like you would prefer that atheists, pagans and other non-christians not participate in public forums where laws and statutes are being discussed. Legal matters that could affect their lives. Nice way to get rid of your political opponents. Not quite what I think of as "Libertarian" philosophy
 
They should just say their prayer and THEN officially start the meeting...there, issue resolve. No prayer during "official" government business, but they can still take the oppertunity to pray for whatever prior to the meeting.
 
It's against the law for government to force an individual to partake in prayer.

It's against the law for the government to forbid an individual from partaking in prayer.

It's really that simple: pray if you want, if you are opposed then don't pray....
 
Caine said:
Praying in someone else's presence is NOT a revocation of their civil liberties.
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Government entities opening and closing meetings with prayers is.
 
Hatuey said:
1. Teachers getting together to pray: Fine. They don't have to be around students.
2. Teachers having prayer sessions at official school functions: Not fine.
3. Location: Unimportant. They can pray where they want to.
4. Event: Important. See 1 & 2.
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None of it is important. In none of the above examples are the students involved in her prayer. You're just parroting some trash without putting any thought into it.

Separation of church & state certainly exists in a secular government. That you don't think it does is laughable.
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I will give you a cookie if you can find it.
 
Mr.Nick said:
Sorry, not being offended is NOT a civil liberty.
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Who said it was? Strawman #1. This is why I specifically said: You DON'T have the right to spread your religion through a school function.

You don't have a right NOT to be exposed to religion.
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SCOTUS disagrees with your arm chair lawyerism:

Supreme Court Decision on Evolution & Creationism: Epperson v. Arkansas
Supreme Court Decision: McCollum v. Board of Education, School District 71
Abington School District v. Schempp & Murray v. Curlett (1963)
Supreme Court Decision - Torcaso v. Watkins
Court Decision - FFRF v. Rhea County Board of Edudcation

YOU HAVE A CHOICE, if you don't agree with prayer then don't associate with religious folk and don't work where people pray... No one is forcing you.
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Official government functions don't provide that choice. :shrug:

Using your logic I should have the RIGHT NOT to be exposed to progressive ideas..
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You do. Do you have to listen to the Communist Manifesto at government meetings?
 
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