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Thread: Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare

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    Re: Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    So many? Show me a link.
    If you were really interested you would have looked but here ya go.

    "A Canadian study released Wednesday found that many provinces in our neighbor to the north have seen patients fleeing the country and opting for medical treatment in the United States.

    The nonpartisan Fraser Institute reported that 46,159 Canadians sought medical treatment outside of Canada in 2011, as wait times increased 104 percent — more than double — compared with statistics from 1993.

    Specialist physicians surveyed across 12 specialties and 10 provinces reported an average total wait time of 19 weeks between the time a general practitioner refers a patient and the time a specialist provides elective treatment — the longest they have ever recorded.


    Read more: Report: Thousands fled Canada for health care in 2011 | The Daily Caller

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    Re: Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    If you were really interested you would have looked but here ya go.

    "A Canadian study released Wednesday found that many provinces in our neighbor to the north have seen patients fleeing the country and opting for medical treatment in the United States.

    The nonpartisan Fraser Institute reported that 46,159 Canadians sought medical treatment outside of Canada in 2011, as wait times increased 104 percent — more than double — compared with statistics from 1993.

    Specialist physicians surveyed across 12 specialties and 10 provinces reported an average total wait time of 19 weeks between the time a general practitioner refers a patient and the time a specialist provides elective treatment — the longest they have ever recorded.


    Read more: Report: Thousands fled Canada for health care in 2011 | The Daily Caller
    Our free market economic model breeds the best doctors in the world considering a good doctor gets paid more than a bad doctor.

    I suppose this is one of the many rewards of being better than others at a particular profession.

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    Re: Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Indeed. But you are confusing "advances in medical science" with "advances in health care".



    This is like saying that because only one person out of a group of ten eats right, exercises, and is thus not obese, that eating right and exercising would not get the other nine in better shape. The programs are indeed limited to companies and states. Which means that right now, in the US, they have a better and more proven track record than single-payer, which no state has implemented.



    Many are. But not our poor - they have Medicaid. Furthermore, the policy proposal that you are refusing to address solves that by issuing them a health insurance plan at public expense.



    and in your model they would pay quite a bit for UHC and the effect would be the same, except that whereas before health insurance specifics were at least somewhat responsive to the consumers, now it is unresponsive [i]entirely. Oh, and that you would also wreck a large portion of our economy by turning it into a state enterprise.



    1. That is incorrect. We pay more than the rest of the industrialized world and we get more than the rest of the industrialized world.
    2. The reforms I mention would indeed put downward pressure on prices, as that is what they do when they are enacted as demonstrated.



    Oh, we'll all work together, remove obstruction, don't know until we try, pass the bill so we can find out what's in it, eh? Yeah. that works great. OR we can try to actually improve our healthcare system rather than simply turning over the rationing function to unelected bureaucrats while crashing the federal budget. You'll forgive me if I have a hard time looking at the ruins of socialism (and state control of the means of production of health care goods and services is absolutely that so don't start with the "oh no this is something totally different because socialism has no definition nor has anyone ever really tried it" crap) and saying "aha! here is progress!"

    If you could show me where it was possible to collect that revenue you would have done so. However, even when top marginal tax rates were in the 90s, we didn't get anywhere close to the amount of money you are blithely insisting that we could bring in if we "all work together to a better plan"



    But hey, I remain open to actual argument. Please demonstrate to me where any combination of rates (and we had some whoppers, back around the mid-20th-century) have ever produced the kind of additional tax revenue that you are suggesting we can pull in.
    Perhaps I did confuse, but that was an example of government money doing good work many often attribute, Inaccurately, to the American market place. It's government money. Government institutions.

    And no matter the reasons, limited is limited. The 9 in 10 will still get ill, still get hurt, still use care you will pay for. Nothing you do outside of denying care will change that. So, we should devise a plan that effectively deals with the problems we have and just a small segment of the population.

    And in tis country, it pays to be either very poor or wealthy enough. To be working poor is to be lost in no man's land. Talk about incentives (something many think they understand but don't).

    And no, health care can be removed from employment. This is part of the appeal of doing business overseas. They don't have to deal with the cost of healthcare (or paying a decent wage).

    And no, we get more fluff, for the wealthy, but in terms of access, we get less. And if you're among the working poor here, you get less of everything measured.

    As for downward pressure, that's not enough. The pressure of those things you mention simply will not do enough. It will still be too expensive for most, we'll still be paying for the uninsured. And we'll still be paying more for less than the rest of the world.

    Your last part is more snarky than anything else. The point is working together as problem solvers is more effective than either being ideologues or being to concerned with being elected. Work on solving real issues.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Take a look at your own link, Boo. Notice how part of it reads "20070613" ? Now go click on the link and then go to the bottom and choose "View Source Articles".


    That score is from a study that was released in June of 2007.


    Indiana's medicaid reforms have been hugely successful, with an approval rating by participants of 98%. You're so big on preventative care? Indiana's program increased the amount of Medicaid recipients who sought out and received it from 39 to 59% in 12 months.

    Woops?
    No woods. It isn't the point. The point is they haven't solved the problem. Still too expense and still ranked only 31 st.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Perhaps I did confuse, but that was an example of government money doing good work many often attribute, Inaccurately, to the American market place. It's government money. Government institutions.

    And no matter the reasons, limited is limited. The 9 in 10 will still get ill, still get hurt, still use care you will pay for. Nothing you do outside of denying care will change that. So, we should devise a plan that effectively deals with the problems we have and just a small segment of the population.

    And in tis country, it pays to be either very poor or wealthy enough. To be working poor is to be lost in no man's land. Talk about incentives (something many think they understand but don't).

    And no, health care can be removed from employment. This is part of the appeal of doing business overseas. They don't have to deal with the cost of healthcare (or paying a decent wage).

    And no, we get more fluff, for the wealthy, but in terms of access, we get less. And if you're among the working poor here, you get less of everything measured.

    As for downward pressure, that's not enough. The pressure of those things you mention simply will not do enough. It will still be too expensive for most, we'll still be paying for the uninsured. And we'll still be paying more for less than the rest of the world.

    Your last part is more snarky than anything else. The point is working together as problem solvers is more effective than either being ideologues or being to concerned with being elected. Work on solving real issues.
    There is no such thing as "government money." It's our collective money.

    Our government doesn't own a damn thing. Of course many in government believe they're secular (removed) from the people but they're still dependent on the people to fund their nonsense.

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    Re: Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Nick View Post
    There is no such thing as "government money." It's our collective money.

    Our government doesn't own a damn thing. Of course many in government believe they're secular (removed) from the people but they're still dependent on the people to fund their nonsense.
    Didn't say anything different concerning whose money it is. Only that our money can be used more effectively.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Didn't say anything different concerning whose money it is. Only that our money can be used more effectively.
    Agreed.

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    Re: Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by iliveonramen View Post
    I agree..repeal and replace with universal healthcare.
    Even as a Libertarian, I must say, at least in theory, I am with you to an extent. Insurance companies are what drives the cost of healthcare in the upward direction. I would be interested to see what would happen if more doctors (like this guy) stopped accepting insurance. If a not for profit system, such as single payer, was implemented with restraint (i.e. not everyone is entitled to it, only the poor, temporarily, etc.) the cost of healthcare, insofar as the aforementioned doctor's practice is able to suggest, would likely go down.

    But, I am sure there are many issues that would be affected in the absence of insurance of which I am ignorant.

    Also, note to my fellow libertarians: I suggest the government program as a means of compromise.

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    Re: Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by head of joaquin View Post
    Yeah, those awful working people, organizing and changing people's mind. Where do they get off doing things to make the lives of working Americans better?
    "Working" people....."working"? Code words used by communists. A working class only exist in communist countries. Buddy, you're either in the wrong country, or you don't understand America. So who are the other people, the non-working? Hmmmm, like maybe those on welfare and retired? What do you have against them? Explain it to me.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    If you were really interested you would have looked but here ya go.

    "A Canadian study released Wednesday found that many provinces in our neighbor to the north have seen patients fleeing the country and opting for medical treatment in the United States.

    The nonpartisan Fraser Institute reported that 46,159 Canadians sought medical treatment outside of Canada in 2011, as wait times increased 104 percent more than double compared with statistics from 1993.

    Specialist physicians surveyed across 12 specialties and 10 provinces reported an average total wait time of 19 weeks between the time a general practitioner refers a patient and the time a specialist provides elective treatment the longest they have ever recorded.


    Read more: Report: Thousands fled Canada for health care in 2011 | The Daily Caller
    Ah, no sawyer... if you're going to make claims, you better be prepared to back them up. So the onus is on you.

    Now, let's take a look at the study. What do you think the results mean? Is the fleeing of Canadian patients going to other countries for medical intervention a poor reflection on the current Canadian healthcare system? That Canadians 'flock' to American hospital means that the American system is superior? I'm interested in your opinion,and what you think the results of the 'study' means.
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