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Thread: Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare

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    Re: Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    My source was pretty clear, nonpartisan Fraser institute. The fact is Canadians leave Canada by the tens of thousands per year for health care. Those are just the ones that can afford it so you have to believe there are tens of thousands more that would if they could.
    Two things: 1) there are sources that rebut it, just. Non-partisan and 2) Canada is but one system. Cherry picking is not addressing the entirety of the argument. Btw, I can show you Americans going to Canada and that Canadians report being happier with their care than we are. Then we can more on to other systems, like say France.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    Is that what you really think, especially when you look at the bigger picture?
    If the point of a healthcare system is not to provide cures to the sick and comfort to the suffering... then what exactly is it for?

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    Re: Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Perhaps I did confuse, but that was an example of government money doing good work many often attribute, Inaccurately, to the American market place. It's government money. Government institutions.

    And no matter the reasons, limited is limited. The 9 in 10 will still get ill, still get hurt, still use care you will pay for. Nothing you do outside of denying care will change that. So, we should devise a plan that effectively deals with the problems we have and just a small segment of the population.

    And in tis country, it pays to be either very poor or wealthy enough. To be working poor is to be lost in no man's land. Talk about incentives (something many think they understand but don't).
    Lower income Americans are in better health than comparable Canadians. Twice as many American seniors with below-median incomes self-report "excellent" health compared to Canadian seniors (11.7 percent versus 5.8 percent). Conversely, white Canadian young adults with below-median incomes are 20 percent more likely than lower income Americans to describe their health as "fair or poor."

    And no, health care can be removed from employment. This is part of the appeal of doing business overseas. They don't have to deal with the cost of healthcare (or paying a decent wage).
    I wholeheartedly agree that healthcare can be removed from employment. But when you simply increase the taxes that the employer pays in order to fund government healthcare, you havent' exactly reduced his costs - you've increased them, because now he has to pay for healthcare and the government to run it.

    And no, we get more fluff, for the wealthy, but in terms of access, we get less. And if you're among the working poor here, you get less of everything measured.

    As for downward pressure, that's not enough. The pressure of those things you mention simply will not do enough.
    In places where it's been implemented we've seen reductions in prices for normal procedures to half of the standard cost. I'd say that's pretty darn impressive.

    It will still be too expensive for most, we'll still be paying for the uninsured. And we'll still be paying more for less than the rest of the world.

    Your last part is more snarky than anything else. The point is working together as problem solvers is more effective than either being ideologues or being to concerned with being elected. Work on solving real issues.
    Right. So, just to be clear, you continue to be unable to demonstrate any combination of tax rates that at any point in our history have ever even come remotely close to producing the revenue that you would require to fund a massive new entitlement such as Single-Payer?

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    Re: Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Lower income Americans are in better health than comparable Canadians. Twice as many American seniors with below-median incomes self-report "excellent" health compared to Canadian seniors (11.7 percent versus 5.8 percent). Conversely, white Canadian young adults with below-median incomes are 20 percent more likely than lower income Americans to describe their health as "fair or poor."



    I wholeheartedly agree that healthcare can be removed from employment. But when you simply increase the taxes that the employer pays in order to fund government healthcare, you havent' exactly reduced his costs - you've increased them, because now he has to pay for healthcare and the government to run it.



    In places where it's been implemented we've seen reductions in prices for normal procedures to half of the standard cost. I'd say that's pretty darn impressive.



    Right. So, just to be clear, you continue to be unable to demonstrate any combination of tax rates that at any point in our history have ever even come remotely close to producing the revenue that you would require to fund a massive new entitlement such as Single-Payer?
    We can play dueling sources if you want, but there Re still too points (and only two), 1) Canadians are happier than we are with their care and 2) Canada is not the only system out there.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    1) Canadians are happier than we are with their care and 2) Canada is not the only system out there.
    But are they happier with their system BECAUSE of that system or are they happy because they know for any "complex" procedure they need done quicker, they can just come to the U.S. for treatment?

    I'm only asking because when surveys are done, sometimes the question is a little bit misleading. For instance, if you were to ask me "Am I happy where I am living" because it's somewhat in a country area, I would say yes. However, that is just because the city is only 15 miles from me. If you were to ask me the same question and I didn't live near a city I would say no.

    Regardless, I think the question of Health Care cannot really be compared directly to another country because they are always differing factors so in that I agree.

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    Re: Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    But are they happier with their system BECAUSE of that system or are they happy because they know for any "complex" procedure they need done quicker, they can just come to the U.S. for treatment?

    I'm only asking because when surveys are done, sometimes the question is a little bit misleading. For instance, if you were to ask me "Am I happy where I am living" because it's somewhat in a country area, I would say yes. However, that is just because the city is only 15 miles from me. If you were to ask me the same question and I didn't live near a city I would say no.

    Regardless, I think the question of Health Care cannot really be compared directly to another country because they are always differing factors so in that I agree.
    As I linked earlier, we wait here, so I doubt that. The thing is here, if you have a lot of money, you get good and fast service. If not, you wait. Or not get the care to start with. Most Canadians I suspect are not that wealthy, so they likely Appreciate actually have care. And you can find many links showing they really don't wait for urgent care.

    But like I said, lets not pretend they are the only system out there.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    We can play dueling sources if you want, but there Re still too points (and only two), 1) Canadians are happier than we are with their care and 2) Canada is not the only system out there.
    1. Canadians are probably happier in general than we are. Canadians also have the safety valve of the U.S.
    2. You are correct - Canada probably does single payer far more effectively than we could.


    But just to be clear, you still have yet to identify the magical source of free money that is going to pay for all this?

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    Re: Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    1. Canadians are probably happier in general than we are. Canadians also have the safety valve of the U.S.
    2. You are correct - Canada probably does single payer far more effectively than we could.


    But just to be clear, you still have yet to identify the magical source of free money that is going to pay for all this?
    Yes I have. I gave you a link on a plan. As there was nothing magical nor free about it. You're merely playing games.

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

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    Re: Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    As I linked earlier, we wait here, so I doubt that.
    Not as long as they do, and we have greater access. There are more MRI machines in Atlanta Georgia than there are in the entire country of Canada.

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    Re: Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley View Post
    Yes I have. I gave you a link on a plan. As there was nothing magical nor free about it. You're merely playing games.
    Ah, no. You linked me claims that increased tax rates would magically produce this revenue. Then I pointed out to you that tax rates much higher than the ones proposed hadn't produced produced as much revenue as your links assumed would be coming in. Your response to that so far has been.... nothing.

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