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Thread: Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare

  1. #101
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    Re: Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    I still don't see why you think Canadians flock to the US for healthcare. It's absolutely untrue.
    I gave you a link. WTF?

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    Re: Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    I gave you a link. WTF?
    Did you actually read it?

    Here, let me help you. Here's a chart that will give you good visual effect:

    canadian.jpg
    No men are anywhere, and Im allowed to go in, because Im the owner of the pageant and therefore Im inspecting it, Trump said... Is everyone OK? You know, theyre standing there with no clothes. Is everybody OK? And you see these incredible looking women, and so I sort of get away with things like that.

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    Re: Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    And our survival birth rate better is that your... na-na-na-na-na-na!

    Hah, except that you were making your comment about cancer and how awesome Canada is with Cancer treatment.

    Also, the higher infant mortality rate in the US has nothing to do with the health care system and everything to do with the increase in pregnancies among teens and women over 35. That cultural shift in who is having babies has driven a high pre-mature birth rate in the US which is responsible for the high infant mortality rate. That is a cultural issue, rather than a health care issue. And it also turns out that the survival rate of preemies is higher in the US than it is in Canada. So na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na back at you.

    And even though Canada has a rather low preemie rate, they still rank second to last in first day infant mortality rate. The US ranks last, but they have a preemie rate of 13/1000 to Canada's 7/1000 which drives their high mortality rate.

    So woohoo, Canadian women have children at a more normal age.

    ... has nothing to do with your health care system.


    And my nationalistic pride has nothing--I mean nothing--to do with why I think our healthcare system (as far from perfect as it is presently) is eons better than yours.

    No, it has EVERYTHING to do with it. Were you not so filled with national pride you might have actually dug into the statistics to see if they really say what you think they say.

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    Re: Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Hah, except that you were making your comment about cancer and how awesome Canada is with Cancer treatment.
    I was? Where's my quote?



    No, it has EVERYTHING to do with it. Were you not so filled with national pride you might have actually dug into the statistics to see if they really say what you think they say.
    I'm aware of some stats. I am also aware that overall, Canada statistically ranks better than American healthcare. You need to seriously accept that despite your national pride.
    No men are anywhere, and Im allowed to go in, because Im the owner of the pageant and therefore Im inspecting it, Trump said... Is everyone OK? You know, theyre standing there with no clothes. Is everybody OK? And you see these incredible looking women, and so I sort of get away with things like that.

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    Re: Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    I was? Where's my quote?
    How soon you forget...


    I'm aware of some stats. I am also aware that overall, Canada statistically ranks better than American healthcare. You need to seriously accept that despite your national pride.

    You are likely thinking of the studies where they rank a whole multitude of pointless things like "access to insurance", and then weight the non-healthcare related statistics many times higher than the actual health care in the given country. In short, if their goal is to promote the magic of socialized medicine they rank high... but when you compare on ACTUAL HEALTH CARE they rate poorly... which is why with these pro-socialized medicine statistics they never seem to catch the nuance for why the actual health care data is skewed and chalk up all differences to socialized medicine.

    As the old joke goes: 87% of Canadians love Canadian Health care while the other 13% are sick.

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    Re: Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare

    my original quote:
    I can't speak for other countries, but I can assure you that a patient in Canada with lung cancer will be taken care of with the highest amount of urgency and care, no matter the initial prognosis.
    your quote:

    Hah, except that you were making your comment about cancer and how awesome Canada is with Cancer treatment.

    Do I have to break it down for you or do you now see the light? I never mentioned anything about the success rate of oncology here in Canada. I just said that cancer patients will be well taken care of, no matter if they are in the 1st or 4th stage. I am fully aware that the American system has greater success with some forms of cancer (like breast) but what I was trying to do was stop with the ridiculous fallacy that Canadians with serious illnesses have to wait a whack load of time to get treatment. That is simply an untrue 'fact' that only the ignorant and uninformed believe.


    You are likely thinking of the studies where they rank a whole multitude of pointless things like "access to insurance", and then weight the non-healthcare related statistics many times higher than the actual health care in the given country. In short, if their goal is to promote the magic of socialized medicine they rank high... but when you compare on ACTUAL HEALTH CARE they rate poorly... which is why with these pro-socialized medicine statistics they never seem to catch the nuance for why the actual health care data is skewed and chalk up all differences to socialized medicine.
    For ****'s sake, when half your population does not have easy access to healthcare, then it's going to suck. That is the whole ****ing point.

    As the old joke goes: 87% of Canadians love Canadian Health care while the other 13% are sick.
    Don't quit your day job.
    No men are anywhere, and Im allowed to go in, because Im the owner of the pageant and therefore Im inspecting it, Trump said... Is everyone OK? You know, theyre standing there with no clothes. Is everybody OK? And you see these incredible looking women, and so I sort of get away with things like that.

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    Re: Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Middleground View Post
    Did you actually read it?

    Here, let me help you. Here's a chart that will give you good visual effect:

    canadian.jpg
    Hate to repeat myself but facts are facts.


    The nonpartisan Fraser Institute reported that 46,159 Canadians sought medical treatment outside of Canada in 2011, as wait times increased 104 percent — more than double — compared with statistics from 1993.

    Specialist physicians surveyed across 12 specialties and 10 provinces reported an average total wait time of 19 weeks between the time a general practitioner refers a patient and the time a specialist provides elective treatment — the longest they have ever recorded.

  8. #108
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    Re: Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by sawyerloggingon View Post
    Hate to repeat myself but facts are facts.


    The nonpartisan Fraser Institute reported that 46,159 Canadians sought medical treatment outside of Canada in 2011, as wait times increased 104 percent — more than double — compared with statistics from 1993.

    Specialist physicians surveyed across 12 specialties and 10 provinces reported an average total wait time of 19 weeks between the time a general practitioner refers a patient and the time a specialist provides elective treatment — the longest they have ever recorded.
    Not sure where you're getting your information. But I don't think it's accurate:

    Myth: There are long waits for care, which compromise access to care.There are no waits for urgent or primary care in Canada. There are reasonable waits for most specialists' care, and much longer waits for elective surgery. Yes, there are those instances where a patient can wait up to a month for radiation therapy for breast cancer or prostate cancer, for example. However, the wait has nothing to do with money per se, but everything to do with the lack of radiation therapists. Despite such waits, however, it is noteworthy that Canada boasts lower incident and mortality rates than the U.S. for all cancers combined, according to the U.S. Cancer Statistics Working Group and the Canadian Cancer Society. Moreover, fewer Canadians (11.3 percent) than Americans (14.4 percent) admit unmet health care needs.

    Read more: Debunking Canadian health care myths - The Denver Post Debunking Canadian health care myths - The Denver Post
    Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: Terms of Use - The Denver Post
    Follow us: @Denverpost on Twitter | Denverpost on Facebook

    The truth, as usual, is something in between the two extremes. Does Canada have problems in its health care system? Absolutely. Does the Canadian system match with the horror film depiction of the Republican party? Absolutely not. In analyzing and health care system which is as complex and vast as the Canadian and American system it is not useful to focus on individual anecdotes. After all, if you look into any systems covering that many people you will always be able to find some failures. One needs to only watch Sicko and Jon Stossel reports back-to-back to find multiple stories of people who have been failed by both systems. Instead, we should focus on the overall data from each country to judge which system is superior.

    (Snip)

    The truth, as usual, is something in between the two extremes. Does Canada have problems in its health care system? Absolutely. Does the Canadian system match with the horror film depiction of the Republican party? Absolutely not. In analyzing and health care system which is as complex and vast as the Canadian and American system it is not useful to focus on individual anecdotes. After all, if you look into any systems covering that many people you will always be able to find some failures. One needs to only watch Sicko and Jon Stossel reports back-to-back to find multiple stories of people who have been failed by both systems. Instead, we should focus on the overall data from each country to judge which system is superior.

    (Snip)


    Conclusion:

    In America we spend more and yet still receive less health care overall in comparison to our Canadian friends up North. Perhaps instead of trying to run away from the "we will become Canada" argument the Obama administration should simply concede the argument. In reality, the plan proposed by Democrats has significant differences with the Canadian system. Most importantly, the United States system at least intends to maintain a private insurance system. Still, without a doubt the Democratic proposal would make our health care system more similar to the Canadian system. If this is true the data above reveals that actually may not be bad thing.

    Health care reform fact or fiction part four: Is Canada's health care better or worse? - National Political Buzz | Examiner.com

    Canadians happy with primary health care, study says - The Globe and Mail

    AUSTAN GOOLSBEE: I think the world vests too much power, certainly in the president, probably in Washington in general for its influence on the economy, because most all of the economy has nothing to do with the government.

  9. #109
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    Re: Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo Radley;1062122240[B
    ]Not sure where you're getting your information. But I don't think it's accurate:[/B]

    Myth: There are long waits for care, which compromise access to care.There are no waits for urgent or primary care in Canada. There are reasonable waits for most specialists' care, and much longer waits for elective surgery. Yes, there are those instances where a patient can wait up to a month for radiation therapy for breast cancer or prostate cancer, for example. However, the wait has nothing to do with money per se, but everything to do with the lack of radiation therapists. Despite such waits, however, it is noteworthy that Canada boasts lower incident and mortality rates than the U.S. for all cancers combined, according to the U.S. Cancer Statistics Working Group and the Canadian Cancer Society. Moreover, fewer Canadians (11.3 percent) than Americans (14.4 percent) admit unmet health care needs.

    Read more: Debunking Canadian health care myths - The Denver Post Debunking Canadian health care myths - The Denver Post
    Read The Denver Post's Terms of Use of its content: Terms of Use - The Denver Post
    Follow us: @Denverpost on Twitter | Denverpost on Facebook

    The truth, as usual, is something in between the two extremes. Does Canada have problems in its health care system? Absolutely. Does the Canadian system match with the horror film depiction of the Republican party? Absolutely not. In analyzing and health care system which is as complex and vast as the Canadian and American system it is not useful to focus on individual anecdotes. After all, if you look into any systems covering that many people you will always be able to find some failures. One needs to only watch Sicko and Jon Stossel reports back-to-back to find multiple stories of people who have been failed by both systems. Instead, we should focus on the overall data from each country to judge which system is superior.

    (Snip)

    The truth, as usual, is something in between the two extremes. Does Canada have problems in its health care system? Absolutely. Does the Canadian system match with the horror film depiction of the Republican party? Absolutely not. In analyzing and health care system which is as complex and vast as the Canadian and American system it is not useful to focus on individual anecdotes. After all, if you look into any systems covering that many people you will always be able to find some failures. One needs to only watch Sicko and Jon Stossel reports back-to-back to find multiple stories of people who have been failed by both systems. Instead, we should focus on the overall data from each country to judge which system is superior.

    (Snip)


    Conclusion:

    In America we spend more and yet still receive less health care overall in comparison to our Canadian friends up North. Perhaps instead of trying to run away from the "we will become Canada" argument the Obama administration should simply concede the argument. In reality, the plan proposed by Democrats has significant differences with the Canadian system. Most importantly, the United States system at least intends to maintain a private insurance system. Still, without a doubt the Democratic proposal would make our health care system more similar to the Canadian system. If this is true the data above reveals that actually may not be bad thing.

    Health care reform fact or fiction part four: Is Canada's health care better or worse? - National Political Buzz | Examiner.com

    Canadians happy with primary health care, study says - The Globe and Mail
    My source was pretty clear, nonpartisan Fraser institute. The fact is Canadians leave Canada by the tens of thousands per year for health care. Those are just the ones that can afford it so you have to believe there are tens of thousands more that would if they could.

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    Re: Moderate Democrats are quitting on Obamacare

    All this chatter does not change the fact the certain Dems are moving against Obamacare, probably because their constituents are calling/writing them. It doesn't matter what happens in Canada, the Obamacare law is a POS, pure and simple. It's plainly obvious that Obama himself didn't care what the law said, as long as he could get something passed and take credit for it. It's the usual symbolism over substance from the Left. I mean he needs stuff that he can write about in his future book deal after leaving office.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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