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Detroit Files for Largest Municipal Bankruptcy in US History


I'm smarter than the average bear. Perhaps I just don't want to take the time to understand this ****, but, fact is? I don't. In my own investing life, I've done very well -- and I've never invested in one single thing I didn't understand. It's apparent from your links that various people and entities have raped our cities and towns -- due to incompetence and greed on the part of government officials.

If it sounds to good to be true, of course, it usually is. If it looks like smoke and mirrors, of course, it usually is. Still. Taxpayers shouldn't be on the hook. There is a solution. And public pension plans are simply going to have to take a hit.

Thank you for the great information, Rabbit. I'm sorry I'm not more savvy in this area. I just don't understand it. And, quite obviously, neither did a whole bunch of other people.
 
Re: Detroit emergency manager files bankruptcy

Detroit emergency manager files bankruptcy - Chicago Sun-Times

Amazing how successful the liberal economic policies are for major cities in this country. This is the largest city in the nation to file for bankruptcy with more to come. Liberals better wake up


"Liberal economics" has nothing to do with this. Detroit did not/does not have a very diversified industry because it does not have a population with diverse skills. In fact, most of the adults are frankly un-hireable outside of manufacturing, food service, and very basic hospitality services. Half of their population is functionally illiterate and they have a 75% high school dropout rate. Detroit's problems are the result of one reason and one reason only; a citizenry which places almost no value on education because they could always just go work at the factory like their father and his father and his father before him. Now the factories are gone and they're left with no education, no skills, no jobs, and ever dwindling tax contributions to pay for civilization.
 
I really don't mean to be difficult, but this is a subject I have keen interest in. While your source says what IT says, this source says otherwise:



Public pension funds to face calls to set realistic targets | Reuters

You can obviously see what happens when the projected return is too high . . . it initially looks like pension funding will be $1 million ("Hey, we can afford that!") when in reality, because rosy projections are used, the actual funding ends up at $2 million. (Or whatever...poor example, but I think you get it.)

Expected returns during the recession and beyond have been volatile. Just look at places like MN. They can go way down or way up. Actuaries look at trends.

Looking at my state:
Historical trends in the market show that average investment returns had been at or above 8.25 percent over the past several decades. In the 25 years leading up to 2009, the average return was 9.7 percent. Some have argued that the economy has fundamentally changed and that investment returns in the upcoming decades will not reflect historical trends. Others reject the idea that there have been fundamental changes that will lead to dramatically lower investment returns in coming years. The Special Commission to Study the Massachusetts Contributory Retirement Systems reported that an 8 percent investment return assumption represents the expected cost for the state to provide benefits. But even if the returns in the upcoming few years are not expected to be 8.25 percent, and if the rate should be lowered (PERAC suggests that over time an investment return assumption between 7 to 7.75 percent may become the standard), the change, according to PERAC, should not occur at once.10 Instead, the rate should be lowered incrementally over a number of years in order to gradually increase the state's yearly obligation, rather than a sudden one-time change.
Demystifying the State Pension System - MassBudget

But naturally, each state needs to assess the health of its funds.

Just for fun here is something I found from RI since they are looking to change their plan: Rhode Island

The shortfall in Rhode Island’s pension plan for public employees is largely due not to overly generous benefits, but to the failure of state and local government employers to pay their required share of pensions’ cost.
The savings from the Rhode Island Retirement Security Act (RIRSA) of 2011 are due to its higher retirement age and lowering or suspending the cost-of-living adjustment.
RIRSA also cut the defined benefit (DB) pension accrual rate and introduced a new defined contribution (DC) plan. The new DC plan doesn’t save the state money, but will cost retirees.
RIRSA will result in an average benefit cut of 14 percent for future full-career employees. Furthermore, due to the market risk introduced by the DC plan, many future employees will likely do even worse than this average: For the quarter of future employees who are in the lowest quartile of investment returns on their DC plan, the cuts will be 22 percent or higher.
These cuts to retiree incomes stemming from the hybrid DB+DC plan are not projected to translate into savings for the state, and will do little, if anything, to improve the health of Rhode Island’s pension funds. The changes will actually increase the average annual cost for taxpayers.
Rhode Island can and should make its pension funds solvent without exposing future retirees to the risks and higher costs of DC plans.
 
I'm smarter than the average bear. Perhaps I just don't want to take the time to understand this ****, but, fact is? I don't. In my own investing life, I've done very well -- and I've never invested in one single thing I didn't understand. It's apparent from your links that various people and entities have raped our cities and towns -- due to incompetence and greed on the part of government officials.

Well, truth be told it was Wall Street that made out. Even the corrupted government official was charged although I think some are giving the public's power away when they hire these emergency managers who happen to have their own special ties to Wall Street. This incestuous relationship spells trouble. I do not think people should be held as collateral damage. Personally, I think Wall Street should clean up the mess but since they won't and we did clean up theirs its not right to take out retirees. I'm thinking a good start would be the financial transaction tax. Use that revenue to help cities across the US that have never fully recovered from the financial meltdown. That will never happen though. The financial banking industry is way too powerful.
 
Re: Detroit emergency manager files bankruptcy

Let's not be obtuse. The fact that five individuals *liked* the OP should be indicative in and of itself. On many other assorted sites and social media I've seen others take glee in the announcement. Politics at its worst.

In the same way that New Jersey's anemic recovery under Christie has proven conservative principles to be inept and inapplicable in any scenario. Or, we could concede the fact that some issues extend beyond purely political terms.

Christie is not a conservative and NJ is largely run by the corrupt democrat machine.
 
Re: Detroit emergency manager files bankruptcy

Detroit is first. California and Illinois are next...then the Big Dog...The Federal Government is coming. With $16 trillion in unfunded liabilities in the next 10 years, there's no way to avoid fiscal failure. With the combined debt exceeding $20 trillion this year, and that number won't be getting smaller. There is simply no way to pay it back. Even devaluation can't fix it.
 
Re: Detroit emergency manager files bankruptcy

What this does for me is show-more than anything else-the downside of the 'American dream' on a massive scale. That the issues for the ultimate demise of a once prosperous, thriving city are numerous and ubiquitous, does not make the news any less shocking. In saying that, population flight seems to be the biggest contributing factor: I wonder how they are going to tempt Americans back into the city?

Paul
 
Well, truth be told it was Wall Street that made out. Even the corrupted government official was charged although I think some are giving the public's power away when they hire these emergency managers who happen to have their own special ties to Wall Street. This incestuous relationship spells trouble. I do not think people should be held as collateral damage. Personally, I think Wall Street should clean up the mess but since they won't and we did clean up theirs its not right to take out retirees. I'm thinking a good start would be the financial transaction tax. Use that revenue to help cities across the US that have never fully recovered from the financial meltdown. That will never happen though. The financial banking industry is way too powerful.

Explain just how "wall street made out" and is responsible for this mess?
 
Re: Detroit emergency manager files bankruptcy

I wonder how they are going to tempt Americans back into the city?

They can do what Chicago has done. It would have an immediate revitalizing effect: Require that all municipal workers and public school teachers reside within their city limits. They can start with new hires. And give those already working for the city five years to relocate.

Imagine the revitalization that would occur.
 
Re: Detroit emergency manager files bankruptcy

"Liberal economics" has nothing to do with this. Detroit did not/does not have a very diversified industry because it does not have a population with diverse skills. In fact, most of the adults are frankly un-hireable outside of manufacturing, food service, and very basic hospitality services. Half of their population is functionally illiterate and they have a 75% high school dropout rate. Detroit's problems are the result of one reason and one reason only; a citizenry which places almost no value on education because they could always just go work at the factory like their father and his father and his father before him. Now the factories are gone and they're left with no education, no skills, no jobs, and ever dwindling tax contributions to pay for civilization.
And the city managers couldn't see any of this coming? They had no concept of how to manage a downturn? Sorry, this is all on the politicians who run the city and its finances. The people got the management they elected. It was incompetent. It is tragic.
 
Well, truth be told it was Wall Street that made out. Even the corrupted government official was charged although I think some are giving the public's power away when they hire these emergency managers who happen to have their own special ties to Wall Street. This incestuous relationship spells trouble. I do not think people should be held as collateral damage. Personally, I think Wall Street should clean up the mess but since they won't and we did clean up theirs its not right to take out retirees. I'm thinking a good start would be the financial transaction tax. Use that revenue to help cities across the US that have never fully recovered from the financial meltdown. That will never happen though. The financial banking industry is way too powerful.

I do find posters like you good for a laugh. It seems that investors and the financial industry is just one big PIGGY bank for the folks who have run out of ways to keep the ponzi scheme of poor state governance going.

I did take a look at one of your articles that I was wondering about. The one where it says Detroit paid $474 million in fees. Reading the article, most ($375 million) was a bet that Detroit made and lost. Last time I went to the casino, bet red and it came up black I did not call that a casino fee, rather a gambling loss.

It has to be fun posting on a site like this where most people are not skilled in finance. Just hate it when people twist facts that their debate opponents do not understand, maybe that is why this site is so unsatisfying at times.
 
Explain just how "wall street made out" and is responsible for this mess?

It's called inside trading on a massive scale. Traders and banks manipulated a key bank lending rate called LIBOR. Trial is going on now.

The affect-

"It distorts trust in the marketplace if you can't trust the rates at which banks are lending to one another," says Thomas Cooley of New York University's Stern School of Business. The Wall Street Journal's Franceso Guerrera notes that Libor manipulation meant "trillions of dollars of financial instruments were priced at the wrong rate--a fact that could do wonders for plaintiffs' lawyers while undermining investors' confidence in financial markets." Indeed, securities broker and investment bank Keefe, Bruyette & Woods estimates that the banks being investigated for Libor manipulation could end up paying an approximate $35 billion in legal settlements, separate from any payments to regulators.

"Relative to the size of the sixteen banks at risk of lawsuits in the Libor scandal, $35 billion is chump change. But it will be another blow to the banks' ability to hold enough capital to satisfy higher regulatory requirements in the wake of the financial crisis," notes the Huffington Post's Mark Gongloff.
Understanding the Libor Scandal - Council on Foreign Relations

To stick with the topic on thread----how it affected Detroit- DETROIT EFM

10 firms named as first Libor trial begins
10 banks and brokers named as Libor trial begins - Jun. 20, 2013

Anyone else wonder why this isn't making headline news. Too bad the corporate media doesn't cover this story like the Casey Anthony case?
 
I do find posters like you good for a laugh. It seems that investors and the financial industry is just one big PIGGY bank for the folks who have run out of ways to keep the ponzi scheme of poor state governance going.

Um, the banks are writing the laws as I type. The health of our financial institutions depends on OUR health for such things as student loans, pensions, city/town services, housing, etc, etc, etc......the list is endless. Our everyday life is tied to financial institutions.

This is no small potatoes: Libor Lies Revealed in Rigging of $300 Trillion Benchmark
Libor Lies Revealed in Rigging of $300 Trillion Benchmark - Bloomberg
 
Yes, there's no question that the latter groups you mention will contribute nothing to the recovery, and that has to be consitered.

I don't like to be overly partisan but it's downright scary that one party has become so fiscally ignorant that they openly advocate for driving away those who employee people and contribute billions in tax dollars for people who literally contribute nothing. It's pretty easy to see why a city like Detroit has failed so badly.
 
It's called inside trading on a massive scale. Traders and banks manipulated a key bank lending rate called LIBOR. Trial is going on now.

The affect-

"It distorts trust in the marketplace if you can't trust the rates at which banks are lending to one another," says Thomas Cooley of New York University's Stern School of Business. The Wall Street Journal's Franceso Guerrera notes that Libor manipulation meant "trillions of dollars of financial instruments were priced at the wrong rate--a fact that could do wonders for plaintiffs' lawyers while undermining investors' confidence in financial markets." Indeed, securities broker and investment bank Keefe, Bruyette & Woods estimates that the banks being investigated for Libor manipulation could end up paying an approximate $35 billion in legal settlements, separate from any payments to regulators.

"Relative to the size of the sixteen banks at risk of lawsuits in the Libor scandal, $35 billion is chump change. But it will be another blow to the banks' ability to hold enough capital to satisfy higher regulatory requirements in the wake of the financial crisis," notes the Huffington Post's Mark Gongloff.
Understanding the Libor Scandal - Council on Foreign Relations

To stick with the topic on thread----how it affected Detroit- DETROIT EFM

10 firms named as first Libor trial begins
10 banks and brokers named as Libor trial begins - Jun. 20, 2013

Anyone else wonder why this isn't making headline news. Too bad the corporate media doesn't cover this story like the Casey Anthony case?

So Wall Street caused all of Detroit's fiscal problems?! Please.. Get real.
 
I don't like to be overly partisan but it's downright scary that one party has become so fiscally ignorant that they openly advocate for driving away those who employee people and contribute billions in tax dollars for people who literally contribute nothing. It's pretty easy to see why a city like Detroit has failed so badly.

The auto industry was what made the middle class in Detroit. They have lowered wages and benefits for the people who are new hires to half of what the middle class was making and so low wages will continue and be the new norm. It will no longer make a middle class but add to the rolls of the worker insecurity class. If people are okay with this so be it but you can't blame the demise of the middle class on poor people.
 
So Wall Street caused all of Detroit's fiscal problems?! Please.. Get real.

Oh, please site me where I said that. If you look at all my post I clearly said that there were many reasons for this decline but yes the financial instruments that were rigged have had a devastating affect on not just Detroit but many of the biggest cities in the US. We can all relax in the fact that some of the things that happened in Detroit may not at all be the same thing happening in our neck of the woods but with the rigging of the financial instruments, it will most definitely have a much wider effect.
 
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Re: Detroit emergency manager files bankruptcy

What this does for me is show-more than anything else-the downside of the 'American dream' on a massive scale. That the issues for the ultimate demise of a once prosperous, thriving city are numerous and ubiquitous, does not make the news any less shocking. In saying that, population flight seems to be the biggest contributing factor: I wonder how they are going to tempt Americans back into the city?

Paul
If they spent money on demolition, and tore down, or sold to private investors some of the houses (empty) very cheap with the requirement of renovation, Detroit could cause people to return.

Getting rid of the derelict buildings would have to be a priority. It has a good location, cheap land, good transportation links, just bad government, and high crime
 
Re: Detroit emergency manager files bankruptcy

What are we loosing in Afghanistan?

Blood and treasure for starters and second Obama's lost war making all the American lives and treasure we spent down the drain. Just like many of Obama's failed investments, now he has a lost war to add to his credit.
 
Re: Detroit emergency manager files bankruptcy

Blood and treasure for starters and second Obama's lost war making all the American lives and treasure we spent down the drain. Just like many of Obama's failed investments, now he has a lost war to add to his credit.




You didn't answer the question, which wasn't directed to you in any case.




"Better days are coming." ~ But not for today's out of touch, running out of time, GOP.
 
Oh, please site me where I said that. If you look at all my post I clearly said that there were many reasons for this decline but yes the financial instruments that were rigged have had a devastating affect on not just Detroit but many of the biggest cities in the US. We can all relax in the fact that some of the things that happened in Detroit may not at all be the same thing happening in our neck of the woods but with the rigging of the financial instruments, it will most definitely have a much wider effect.

Give me one clear example of such a rigged instrument and how it specifically impacted Detroit's financial condition.
 
The auto industry was what made the middle class in Detroit. They have lowered wages and benefits for the people who are new hires to half of what the middle class was making and so low wages will continue and be the new norm. It will no longer make a middle class but add to the rolls of the worker insecurity class. If people are okay with this so be it but you can't blame the demise of the middle class on poor people.

Of course it's their fault.

They're the ones who opted not get the necessary education to live a middle class lifestyle in the 21st century. A high school diploma might have been all that was necessary to land a cushy union job back in the 1950's but that ship set sail a very long time ago and the productive half of this country is only going to carry the non-productive class for so long.
 
Of course it's their fault.

They're the ones who opted not get the necessary education to live a middle class lifestyle in the 21st century. A high school diploma might have been all that was necessary to land a cushy union job back in the 1950's but that ship set sail a very long time ago and the productive half of this country is only going to carry the non-productive class for so long.

Sorry to say that even people with a good education are having a hard time finding jobs and more importantly retaining them. Not because they are lazy, incompetent or stupid or uneducated but because people can easily be replaced. If you hit a certain age, and are costing a company more money than someone that may not, what incentive would a company have to keep you? It's not the same work place our grandfathers grew up in 50 or so years ago. As a matter of fact, I think the baby boomers will be that last generation that enjoyed worker security. That doesn't mean that I'm going to go around and advocate to make things worse for everyone because they have gotten worse for me but to advocate that things need to get better for everyone if we want to create a strong middle class again in this country.
 
Sorry to say that even people with a good education are having a hard time finding jobs and more importantly retaining them. Not because they are lazy, incompetent or stupid or uneducated but because people can easily be replaced. If you hit a certain age, and are costing a company more money than someone that may not, what incentive would a company have to keep you? It's not the same work place our grandfathers grew up in 50 or so years ago. As a matter of fact, I think the baby boomers will be that last generation that enjoyed worker security. That doesn't mean that I'm going to go around and advocate to make things worse for everyone because they have gotten worse for me but to advocate that things need to get better for everyone if we want to create a strong middle class again in this country.

You're describing unionized and crappy retail jobs which are on the way out.

People working 21st century middle class jobs are paid based on how they perform. "Seniority" is irrelevant in these jobs.
 
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