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Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to perform gay weddings

davidtaylorjr said:
But that isn't the issue according to you guys. You aren't talking about the sex remember, you are talking about the contract.
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Actually, we are talking about a contract that grants a legal relationship based on certain circumstances. The sex that same sex couples have is completely legal, whether it is being done by same sex or opposite sex couples. Incest is not only illegal, but it is restricted for a couple of reasons, including birth defects and undue influence in the relationship that is very likely to happen prior to age of consent for one of the two in the relationship.
 
davidtaylorjr said:
Fine, put an ' after Jesus. Pretty sure we addressed that earlier and clarified what I was talking about. I see you can't seem to move one and have real discussion.
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You ask me to show you the problem and then you have an issue with me showing you the problem?

The discussion is that Jesus didn't write the Bible, men did. So if you believe that Jesus is God, you are still only getting Jesus' words second hand, through witnesses, not from the source. And witnesses are unreliable sources of information due to human failings.
 
roguenuke said:
Actually, we are talking about a contract that grants a legal relationship based on certain circumstances. The sex that same sex couples have is completely legal, whether it is being done by same sex or opposite sex couples. Incest is not only illegal, but it is restricted for a couple of reasons, including birth defects and undue influence in the relationship that is very likely to happen prior to age of consent for one of the two in the relationship.
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Dodging the question I see. That is still forbidding adults to go into a contract, which was the problem you had with my position about homosexuals.
 
roguenuke said:
You ask me to show you the problem and then you have an issue with me showing you the problem?

The discussion is that Jesus didn't write the Bible, men did. So if you believe that Jesus is God, you are still only getting Jesus' words second hand, through witnesses, not from the source. And witnesses are unreliable sources of information due to human failings.
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You forget about inspiration though....
 
davidtaylorjr said:
Dodging the question I see. That is still forbidding adults to go into a contract, which was the problem you had with my position about homosexuals.
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I can prove that sex does play a supposed role in marriage. Just look at how we investigate for marriage fraud. And incestuous sexual relationships are illegal. I didn't "dodge" at all. You simply don't like my answer because it shows the disconnect between same sex relationships and incest relationships.
 
davidtaylorjr said:
You forget about inspiration though....
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Inspiration cannot be proven. You cannot prove that any writer in the Bible was completely "inspired" to write what they did by God or Jesus. No "forgetting" involved. It is called logic.
 
roguenuke said:
I can prove that sex does play a supposed role in marriage. Just look at how we investigate for marriage fraud. And incestuous sexual relationships are illegal. I didn't "dodge" at all. You simply don't like my answer because it shows the disconnect between same sex relationships and incest relationships.
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Not all states have incest as being illegal. So what do you say then?
 
roguenuke said:
Inspiration cannot be proven. You cannot prove that any writer in the Bible was completely "inspired" to write what they did by God or Jesus. No "forgetting" involved. It is called logic.
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You cannot prove otherwise.
 
davidtaylorjr said:
You cannot prove otherwise.
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You can not prove a negative.
So, let's assume that the Bible was inspired. Was the whole thing, then, inspired? If so, what do you do with the stuff in Leviticus, where homosexuality is actually mentioned? If not, then where did Jesus condemn homosexuals?

and back to accepting Christ and changing hearts and minds, I'll give you that one, too. I've seen it first hand, after all. But, is homosexuality in the heart and mind? If it is, then you have a point, but if it is a part of one's physical makup, then you don't.
 
davidtaylorjr said:
Not all states have incest as being illegal. So what do you say then?
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Only one state does not outlaw any incest. But they still don't allow marriage because they already have a relationship that comes with many of the same rights as marriage. Maybe they will fight for marriage in those places where incest relationships are now legal (personally I think first cousins should be allowed to legally marry everywhere). But the states can still show legitimate state interests being furthered by not allowing people who are already within a certain degree of legal relationship to marry or by making certain familial relationships illegal. That is the key. The state must be able to show a legitimate state interest being furthered in any law or restriction within a law. They can't show this when it comes to restricting marriage based on sex/gender.
 
davidtaylorjr said:
You cannot prove otherwise.
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As Ditto said, you can't prove a negative.

But the way our laws work, you must show that the higher authority, God, actually said/believes that homosexuality is a sin. And using the words of other men is not proof. Using what you believe, but cannot prove, was inspired by God, is not proof.
 
Dittohead not! said:
You can not prove a negative.
So, let's assume that the Bible was inspired. Was the whole thing, then, inspired? If so, what do you do with the stuff in Leviticus, where homosexuality is actually mentioned? If not, then where did Jesus condemn homosexuals?

and back to accepting Christ and changing hearts and minds, I'll give you that one, too. I've seen it first hand, after all. But, is homosexuality in the heart and mind? If it is, then you have a point, but if it is a part of one's physical makup, then you don't.
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Heart and mind yes. As far as Leviticus, homosexuality is also discussed in Romans, Corinthians, and Galatians in the New Testament. Jesus' words are not the only things in the New Testament that Christians follow.
 
roguenuke said:
Only one state does not outlaw any incest. But they still don't allow marriage because they already have a relationship that comes with many of the same rights as marriage. Maybe they will fight for marriage in those places where incest relationships are now legal (personally I think first cousins should be allowed to legally marry everywhere). But the states can still show legitimate state interests being furthered by not allowing people who are already within a certain degree of legal relationship to marry or by making certain familial relationships illegal. That is the key. The state must be able to show a legitimate state interest being furthered in any law or restriction within a law. They can't show this when it comes to restricting marriage based on sex/gender.
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Degradation of society and increase in immorality.
 
roguenuke said:
As Ditto said, you can't prove a negative.

But the way our laws work, you must show that the higher authority, God, actually said/believes that homosexuality is a sin. And using the words of other men is not proof. Using what you believe, but cannot prove, was inspired by God, is not proof.
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Except God said it. That is the proof. Eyewitness testimony as well by Paul.
 
There has been some thought provoking studies made of the brains of heteros vs homos. Here's one:

"This research is pointing to basic differences in the brain between homosexual and heterosexual people that are likely there right from the beginning," said Sandra F. Witelson, a professor of psychiatry and behavioral neurosciences at McMaster University in Ontario. "These could be reflecting some genetic or hormonal factors that predetermine your sexual orientation."
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davidtaylorjr said:
Heart and mind yes. As far as Leviticus, homosexuality is also discussed in Romans, Corinthians, and Galatians in the New Testament. Jesus' words are not the only things in the New Testament that Christians follow.
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It is discussed in those books, and condemned as abominations, or is it brought up and open to interpretation?

Much of what has been interpreted as homosexuality are really about idolatry.
 
Dittohead not! said:
It is discussed in those books, and condemned as abominations, or is it brought up and open to interpretation?

Much of what has been interpreted as homosexuality are really about idolatry.
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It directly speaks to it as sin and even says homosexuals will not enter into heaven.
 
davidtaylorjr said:
But that isn't what happened, actually.... I argued homosexuality a sin based on Old and New. Nice try though.
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Then why did you use Leviticus if you argue it is irrelevant when I bring the rest of it up? You should have never used it in the first place.
 
Papa bull said:
He'd probably be trying to heal them of their affliction.
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Right, he'd try to heal all the bigots preaching hate against homosexuals in God's name of their blasphemous affliction.
 
Lakryte said:
Right, he'd try to heal all the bigots preaching hate against homosexuals in God's name of their blasphemous affliction.
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If there were bigots in a gay pride parade, they would be homosexuals, wouldn't they. Funny thing about homosexuals. They tell you they can't help it. They tell you it's this curse that they have no control over. That no one would choose to be gay. But talk about curing the condition of homosexuality and they want to scratch your eyes out. Now go figure, huh!?
 
O.K. ... the GOP has pretty much written off the black vote ... they're blocking immigration reform that Latinos are likely to embrace (so let's forget them as well), they're trying to punch big holes in the safety net for the poor (so let's forget them, and since Latinos and blacks are disproportionately poorer write them off even more), they want women to vote for them but are trying to take their right to choose away and forming vaggie patrols (and these are younger women we're mainly talking about that they are alienating - women who will be around much longer than the old women who do vote for them), and they've targeted and continue to target gays ... forgive me, but this doesn't look like a winning strategy in the long run ... yet, I'm kinda happy about all this ... go figure ... PAUL AND CRUZ IN 2016! (With Palin as Secy of Education).
 
Lakryte said:
Then why did you use Leviticus if you argue it is irrelevant when I bring the rest of it up? You should have never used it in the first place.
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You actually brought up Leviticus, I just said the Bible calls homosexuality an abomination.
 
davidtaylorjr said:
You actually brought up Leviticus, I just said the Bible calls homosexuality an abomination.
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who gives a #$%& what the Bible has to say about public policy ... practice your religion folks, but leave it out of the public arena and don't knock on my door telling me how much Jesus loves me ...
 
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