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Thread: Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to perform gay weddings

  1. #391
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    Re: Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to perform gay weddings

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    One could argue that heterosexual marriage isn't a "right" either.

    Personally, I think "marriage" should be religions version and "civil union" be EVERYBODY'S legal status.

    Removes "marriage" from the states purview and makes all unions equal under the law.
    That's the ultimate solution to the question of gay marriage. Render unto Caesar and all that, allow churches to decide who is "married", and who just has a "civil union".
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    Re: Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to perform gay weddings

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    One could argue that heterosexual marriage isn't a "right" either.
    And a very successful argument it would be, actually. Because it's NOT a right. A right is something that allows you to take action for yourself while state sanctioned marriage is something that the state must issue. Nothing "issued" by the state is a right. The state doesn't issue your right to speak, bear arms, assemble, etc. It does, however, issue licenses and these are not to be confused with "rights".

    Personally, I think "marriage" should be religions version and "civil union" be EVERYBODY'S legal status.
    I tend to agree. The state, however, would still be in the position of determining which sorts of relationships it deems necessary or desirable to sanction with a legal entity.

    Removes "marriage" from the states purview and makes all unions equal under the law.
    The circumstances and qualifications for relationships as they are sanctioned would still be the role of the state to define. It may decide only male/female relationships qualify. It may decide any two-person relationships qualify. It may decide any relationshiop between any number of people qualify and it all depends on what the state considers to be in it's own best interest.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to perform gay weddings

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    That's the ultimate solution to the question of gay marriage. Render unto Caesar and all that, allow churches to decide who is "married", and who just has a "civil union".
    I think that would solve all the emotional based dispute over this. The legal ramifications of taxes, employee benefits, survivor benefits, etc., as administered by the state would still be on the table. There would be a reason why the state would put up these sorts of legal concessions and the state would have to determine which, IF ANY, relationships warranted such concessions. At this point, however, the protection of equal rights would be MUCH more in play than it would with "marriage" and all it's social baggage being the point of contention.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to perform gay weddings

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to marry gays

    Speaking of ****ting all over religious freedom ... I thought the GOP was all about that, guess not when it comes to gays.


    That's s
    Granted, not the most unbiased source in the world. However, don't you think that a religion should be free to perform a religious ceremony?
    That's a severe violation of the First Amendment.
    You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

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    Re: Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to perform gay weddings

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I think that would solve all the emotional based dispute over this. The legal ramifications of taxes, employee benefits, survivor benefits, etc., as administered by the state would still be on the table. There would be a reason why the state would put up these sorts of legal concessions and the state would have to determine which, IF ANY, relationships warranted such concessions. At this point, however, the protection of equal rights would be MUCH more in play than it would with "marriage" and all it's social baggage being the point of contention.
    Except that, all men being created equal and all, if any pair of consenting adults had these sorts of concessions, then all pairs of consenting adults would have them.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to perform gay weddings

    In the end being gay harms no one neither does gays getting married.

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    Re: Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to perform gay weddings

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Except that, all men being created equal and all, if any pair of consenting adults had these sorts of concessions, then all pairs of consenting adults would have them.
    I'd agree except that this is a state sanctioned "legal entity" similar to a corporation. In some states marriage actually is a bona fide legal entity. A government can restrict people from getting a liquor license, driver's license, business license, gambling license... etc. etc. etc. The state may also require that a corporation have certain characteristics and, likewise, it could demand that a civil union have certain characteristics to qualify for license.... like being only two people. Or being male plus female. Now I'll agree that there would be a good argument to challenge a state's restrictions based on equal rights but I don't know that equal rights would outweigh the state's legitimate interest in defining the types of relationships it agrees to sanction. The real case would be in whether the Supreme Court would find such a compelling individual interest as to override anything but the most compelling state interest.

    See, it's not a matter of individual equality, but one of legal definitions, legal entities and states' rights to issue concessions as it pleases. Like can it really issue tax breaks that apply only to single parents?
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to perform gay weddings

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    It is the "opinion" of many biblical scholars that Paul, who was once Saul, never saw Jesus in the flesh. Knowing him only from visions, the first of which was on the "road to Damascus"

    Then we have the story as told in Act 9:3-7 (Authorized KJV)



    NIV
    And I agree with that, Jesus, on the road to Damascas.
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    Re: Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to perform gay weddings

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I'd agree except that this is a state sanctioned "legal entity" similar to a corporation. In some states marriage actually is a bona fide legal entity. A government can restrict people from getting a liquor license, driver's license, business license, gambling license... etc. etc. etc. The state may also require that a corporation have certain characteristics and, likewise, it could demand that a civil union have certain characteristics to qualify for license.... like being only two people. Or being male plus female. Now I'll agree that there would be a good argument to challenge a state's restrictions based on equal rights but I don't know that equal rights would outweigh the state's legitimate interest in defining the types of relationships it agrees to sanction. The real case would be in whether the Supreme Court would find such a compelling individual interest as to override anything but the most compelling state interest.

    See, it's not a matter of individual equality, but one of legal definitions, legal entities and states' rights to issue concessions as it pleases. Like can it really issue tax breaks that apply only to single parents?
    You have a good point about states rights and limiting legal entities.
    The argument would still go on, but perhaps not as rancorous an argument, about gay civil unions. Clearly, there could be restrictions on brothers forming unions with sisters, among others. On the other hand, could they also make interracial unions illegal?
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    Re: Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to perform gay weddings

    Quote Originally Posted by ksu_aviator View Post
    That's a severe violation of the First Amendment.
    It would be if the article was communicating the facts of the matter, but it's misleading. The new law reduces the criminal penalty for lying on a marriage application about anything including gender. But it also makes it an offense for a clerk to issue a license knowing that there is false information on the applicaton and also makes it an offense for an official to solemnize the marriage if the official knows the couple is not legitimate. In other words, if a couple lies on the application for marriage license and the clerk winks at them and issues it, anyway, and they get a Unitarian minister to solemnize the marriage knowing the license is invalid under Indiana law, all parties involved committed a misdemeanor for marrying in defiance of state law.

    Free speech.... none of that's been restricted at all. If you could find an Indiana minister to hold a "marriage ceremoney" for you and your waffle iron, you could go for it an have no legal problems. You just wouldn't REALLY be married to your waffle iron. My apologies to waffle irons everywhere.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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