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Thread: Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to perform gay weddings

  1. #351
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    Re: Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to perform gay weddings

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    A theory has evidence to support it and no evidence against it. The theory of genetics influencing personality traits, including sexuality and attraction, has a lot of evidence to support it and no real evidence against it. You don't want to believe it, fine. But you obviously can't refute it with real evidence.
    You are equivocating. You use the word "theory" imply scientific theory and, therefore, validate your claims. Now you use the loose meaning of the word "theory" because genetic theory regarding homosexuality has NOT been validated. This is classic equivocation and is fallacious argumentation.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to perform gay weddings

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    No, there's scientific theories, not hypotheses. Genetics, epigenetics, and social upbringing can all play a role.
    Very well. We know that a theory is formally validated. Can you cite the formally validated theory of the cause of homosexuality?

    Here. I'll help: https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...iw=853&bih=597

    Note that there are numerous "theories", including "new" theories. There is no scientific theory with multiple contradicting theories. Does that give you a clue as to how scientifically the word "theory" is used in these headlines?
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to perform gay weddings

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    Very well. We know that a theory is formally validated. Can you cite the formally validated theory of the cause of homosexuality?
    Quote from myself, earlier. You just didn't like it.

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    I'm sorry you're ignorant of modern science.

    "Sexual orientation probably is not determined by any one factor but by a combination of genetic, hormonal, and environmental influences." Source.

    "Biometric modeling revealed that, in men, genetic effects explained .34–.39 of the variance, the shared environment .00, and the individual-specific environment .61–.66 of the variance. Corresponding estimates among women were .18–.19 for genetic factors, .16–.17 for shared environmental, and 64–.66 for unique environmental factors. Although wide confidence intervals suggest cautious interpretation, the results are consistent with moderate, primarily genetic, familial effects, and moderate to large effects of the nonshared environment (social and biological) on same-sex sexual behavior." Source.

    "Despite almost a century of psychoanalytic and psychological speculation, there is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of parenting or early childhood experiences have any role in the formation of a person’s fundamental heterosexual or homosexual orientation (Bell and Weinberg, 1978).

    It would appear that sexual orientation is biological in nature, determined by genetic factors (Mustanski et al, 2005) and/or the early uterine environment (Blanchard et al. 2006)." Source.
    Here's plenty of publications on the matter:

    BMC Genetics | Full text | Male-like sexual behavior of female mouse lacking fucose mutarotase
    A genomewide scan of male sexual orientation - Springer
    Extreme skewing of X chromosome inactivation in mothers of homosexual men - Springer
    Evidence for maternally inherited factors favouring male homosexuality and promoting female fecundity.
    PsychiatryOnline | American Journal of Psychiatry | Sexual Orientation in a U.S. National Sample of Twin and Nontwin Sibling Pairs

    That should keep you busy. Of course, you also have to explain away the homosexual behavior found in other animals that are not able to choose. Read these:

    Homosexuality Common in the Wild, Scientists Say | Fox News
    1,500 animal species practice homosexuality
    Neural control of homosexual courtship in Droso... [J Neurogenet. 1989] - PubMed - NCBI
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    Re: Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to perform gay weddings

    So you don't have an actual theory. You've got "links". Lots of "links". None of which actually go to a validated theory. Because there ISN'T one. Thanks for playing.

    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to perform gay weddings

    The question of the evolutionary advantage of homosexuality has been the subject of a lot of study, and much speculation. The bottom line is that no one really knows how, but, for homosexuality to have survived, it must have some sort of survival advantage.


    Here's a discussion, for anyone willing to take the time to read what science has to say about the issue:

    The Evolutionary Mystery of Homosexuality

    Some excerpts:

    First the mystery.

    The sine qua non for any trait to have evolved is for it to correlate positively with reproductive success, or, more precisely, with success in projecting genes relevant to that trait into the future. So, if homosexuality is in any sense a product of evolution—and it clearly is, for reasons to be explained—then genetic factors associated with same-sex preference must enjoy some sort of reproductive advantage. The problem should be obvious: If homosexuals reproduce less than heterosexuals—and they do—then why has natural selection not operated against it?
    Nor can we solve the mystery by arguing that homosexuality is a "learned" behavior. That ship has sailed, and the consensus among scientists is that same-sex preference is rooted in our biology. Some of the evidence comes from the widespread distribution of homosexuality among animals in the wild. Moreover, witness its high and persistent cross-cultural existence in Homo sapiens.
    One study has found that female relatives of gay men have more children than do those of straight men. This suggests that genes for homosexuality, although disadvantageous for gay men and their male relatives, could have a reproductive benefit among straight women.
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    Re: Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to perform gay weddings

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    So you don't have an actual theory. You've got "links". Lots of "links". None of which actually go to a validated theory. Because there ISN'T one. Thanks for playing.

    Well, I know you didn't read those papers as that's 2 - 3 papers per minute. Why don't you quit being dishonest and just admit you don't want your opinion questioned?
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    scientific by itself isn't enough of course.
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    Re: Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to perform gay weddings

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to marry gays

    Speaking of ****ting all over religious freedom ... I thought the GOP was all about that, guess not when it comes to gays.



    Granted, not the most unbiased source in the world. However, don't you think that a religion should be free to perform a religious ceremony?



    What does the First Amendment say?

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press;or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." ~Text of the First Amendment to the United States Constitution

    It looks to me like this new Indiana law violates the First Amendment.

    First Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    Re: Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to perform gay weddings

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    The question of the evolutionary advantage of homosexuality has been the subject of a lot of study, and much speculation. The bottom line is that no one really knows how, but, for homosexuality to have survived, it must have some sort of survival advantage.


    Here's a discussion, for anyone willing to take the time to read what science has to say about the issue:

    The Evolutionary Mystery of Homosexuality


    Some excerpts:

    First the mystery.
    I disagree that for a behavioral trait to survive that it must have an evolutionary advantage. It is behavior. If it is genetic, it would likely not survive at all and I think we can eliminate genetics as the cause. If you can't think of any behavioral traits that humans have that have no evolutionary advantage, let me suggest a few: drug use, incest, pedophelia, suicide. These are things people have been doing for all of recorded history without any evolutionary advantage associated with them.

    On another note... why is any study that supports one's own theories presented as what "science has to say", as though anything any "scientist" or group of "scientists" postulates is the official message of "science"? Whassupwithat?
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to perform gay weddings

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    Well, I know you didn't read those papers as that's 2 - 3 papers per minute. Why don't you quit being dishonest and just admit you don't want your opinion questioned?
    I don't need to read the papers. There is no validated theory and that's the point of the argument. The "links" were smokescreens and busy-work. Diversion is a popular tactic for those with lost positions.

    If you have the one, true, valid scientific theory of homosexuality, cough it up. Lots of links to lots of hypotheses being erroneously CALLED theories isn't going to cut it.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

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    Re: Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to perform gay weddings

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I don't need to read the papers. There is no validated theory and that's the point of the argument. The "links" were smokescreens and busy-work. Diversion is a popular tactic for those with lost positions.
    Links aren't smokescreens. They are scientific explorations in to the very think you denounce. You not liking something is not evidence there's not a validated theory. Now, read those papers, please. If you have any critcisms of the papers (after you've read them, of course) then why don't you bring it up? Perhaps you could get a grant and do research - just kidding, you're no scientist.
    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pin dÁr View Post
    scientific by itself isn't enough of course.
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