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Thread: Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to perform gay weddings

  1. #341
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    Re: Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to perform gay weddings

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    As expected, you dodged the questions.

    I can't personally demonstrate harm caused by either. However, I will readily admit I haven't looked into research on the impacts of incestuous relationships and/or marriage. Feel free to post some in a different thread, because this thread is about same-sex marriage. I have read the research there.

    If someone were to show me demonstrable harm from same-sex marriage, I might reconsider my opinion on it. To date, nobody has managed to do that. Even arguing before the Supreme Court, Prop 8 supporters were unable to demonstrate any harm when directly asked about it. These are the legal experts hired by the religious folks against same-sex marriage to take up the case all the way to the highest court in the land. They were asked directly whether there was any harm in same-sex marriage. They tried to avoid the question. Because they had no answer.

    And neither do you.
    You didn't ask me the question so why would you accuse me of dodging it. It was a non sequitur as a question to me. I did, however, think it would be interesting to hear your take on whether incestuous marriage would be "harmful" to the state. And you actually DID dodge the question. Your OWN question, no less, turned back to you just to test whether it was a rhetorical question or a true query. It appears it was nothing but rhetoric.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

  2. #342
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    Re: Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to perform gay weddings

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    It matters that it's not genetics if you're arguing that it is, in fact, genetic.

    We certainly see that it can be a choice. Only in recent days has there been politically motvated attempt to prove that it's "inborn". The reason for that is obvious, of course. If you can prove it's an immutable characteristic, then you can establish homosexuality as a suspect class quite easily and, therefore, be able to put forward a solid argument that the supreme court must force states to accept homosexual marriage.

    But in spite of all the effort put into this, there is still no proof that homosexuality is actually inborn; just lots of debatable theory and I use the word "theory" loosely (just as you do) because it's actually not nearly so solid as true theory. We both know that a gaggle of loose theories about the cause of homosexuality can't be equated to the theory of relativity or the theory of evolution or the theory of fluid mechanics. Those are long accepted theory and not shots in the dark by modern researchers grasping for straws.
    I am arguing that there is almost certainly a genetic basis to it. I am also arguing that it doesn't matter either way because "inborn" is not a requirement of protection of our Constitution or against laws.

    It is much more solid of a theory than "it is a choice for most", which has been shown to be wrong.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  3. #343
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    Re: Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to perform gay weddings

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    I have a theory that the less a progressive knows about a subject the more likely they are to pontificate on that subject.

    There. Don't argue with me. It's a theory. Everything is a theory and, therefore, you can't dismiss anything anyone "theorizes" because... well.. it's "theory".
    No, you cannot simply dismiss theories just because you don't believe them or don't agree with them or don't really understand them. That is what is being said. You must show counter evidence to them. That is how science works. So far, you haven't successfully countered anything, but rather just continued to repeat past, failed arguments.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  4. #344
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    Re: Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to perform gay weddings

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I am arguing that there is almost certainly a genetic basis to it. I am also arguing that it doesn't matter either way because "inborn" is not a requirement of protection of our Constitution or against laws.

    It is much more solid of a theory than "it is a choice for most", which has been shown to be wrong.
    Try to stick to honest argumentation. It has been THOUGHT to be wrong that it is a choice. It has not yet been proven. If you want to insist that it has, then I know you're more interested in your agenda than the truth.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

  5. #345
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    Re: Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to perform gay weddings

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    No, you cannot simply dismiss theories just because you don't believe them or don't agree with them or don't really understand them. That is what is being said. You must show counter evidence to them. That is how science works. So far, you haven't successfully countered anything, but rather just continued to repeat past, failed arguments.
    And you can't call anything that scientists "think" to be a theory. You know that "theory" is a lot tighter than "researchers believe" or "research seems to indicate" or "It is probable that". There is no actual theory about homosexual causation. There are just hypotheses.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

  6. #346
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    Re: Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to perform gay weddings

    At any rate.... does causation have some bearing on the fact that Indiana will consider it a misdemeanor for an official to actually solemnize a marriage for a couple that the official KNOWS to be unqualified to be married in the state?

    Every discussion seems to come back to some fuzzy logic about why homosexuals don't want to engage in relationships with people that they would be allowed to marry.
    You can't reason anyone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place.

  7. #347
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    Re: Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to perform gay weddings

    Quote Originally Posted by davidtaylorjr View Post
    2 Peter 3:14-16
    I was wrong about the fact that none of the apostles had met Paul. (Some had.) I was not wrong about the fact that Paul never met Jesus. He claims to have had a vision of Jesus (and even that is sketchy). I'm willing to bet that he was able to convince the apostles he did meet of what he believed and then started manipulating them, considering they knew he never actually met Jesus. People were much less skeptical back then. Someone said they saw Jesus and he spoke to them, they were probably very likely to believe them (especially those who themselves believed that they saw Jesus after his death).

    Things that people write are almost certainly going to have them appear to be in the right, the person on the positive or just side of a situation. We see this in the Bible. It is all just opinions of men. It includes their biases, prejudices, personal beliefs, insecurities, and faults.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  8. #348
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    Re: Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to perform gay weddings

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    And you can't call anything that scientists "think" to be a theory. You know that "theory" is a lot tighter than "researchers believe" or "research seems to indicate" or "It is probable that". There is no actual theory about homosexual causation. There are just hypotheses.
    A theory has evidence to support it and no evidence against it. The theory of genetics influencing personality traits, including sexuality and attraction, has a lot of evidence to support it and no real evidence against it. You don't want to believe it, fine. But you obviously can't refute it with real evidence.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  9. #349
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    Re: Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to perform gay weddings

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    And you can't call anything that scientists "think" to be a theory. You know that "theory" is a lot tighter than "researchers believe" or "research seems to indicate" or "It is probable that". There is no actual theory about homosexual causation. There are just hypotheses.
    No, there's scientific theories, not hypotheses. Genetics, epigenetics, and social upbringing can all play a role.
    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    I've never denied my own hackish tendencies
    Quote Originally Posted by Pin dÁr View Post
    scientific by itself isn't enough of course.
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  10. #350
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    Re: Indiana GOP passes law making it a crime for clergy to perform gay weddings

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa bull View Post
    At any rate.... does causation have some bearing on the fact that Indiana will consider it a misdemeanor for an official to actually solemnize a marriage for a couple that the official KNOWS to be unqualified to be married in the state?

    Every discussion seems to come back to some fuzzy logic about why homosexuals don't want to engage in relationships with people that they would be allowed to marry.
    No. What has a bearing on it is the First Amendment and freedom of religion, including the freedom of any religion to perform a religious ceremony (including solemnizing a marriage of a same sex couple) when that ceremony does not harm anyone. Telling a church or clergyman that they cannot solemnize a same sex wedding violates that freedom. (Signing the marriage license is different than solemnizing a marriage.) The first time a member of any faith is brought up on charges for performing a ceremony for a same sex (or most other types of couples), there will be a federal challenge to that law.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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