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Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

You are not much for exactitude, are you? First, you typed 'I notice you cannot dispute what I said.' Of course I can if I wish - all I have to do is to start typing. How effective it is would have to be seen - but I certainly can dispute it. Unless you believe I am physically unable to type on my computer - then there is no way you can know that I 'cannot dispute what I (you) said'.
Ahh, more irrelevant word games. It seems I keep running into that constantly around here lately.

Second, if I was Snowden, I would certainly not say everything I knew - then my value would drop to zip. What country that hates America (like Venezuela - who offered him asylum) wants a spy with nothing to say?
It doesn't matter, because MY point was he could have said everything he wanted to say and then be willing to stand trial.

If you don't believe that - I don't really care.
Ahh, but your example misses the point. The point was not about what country would take him, but rather how to get out all of his information if he was in jail.


Third, your rephrase is better - but it still is wanting.

'Almost assuredly'?

'as·sured (-shrd)
adj.
1. Made certain; guaranteed'

assuredly - definition of assuredly by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.


The only way you could 'almost guarantee' what his wants are is if he specifically said what they are regarding that subject.
Nope, that's why the word "almost" was there. We can use logic and facts to come up with a guess which is all but certain. The word "almost" is the key. For someone who seems so worried about playing word games, I find it amusing how you ignore them when it works against you.
 
Not me. I hope he's brought back to the United States and put on trial. Running away and hiding is cowardly. If he feels this strongly about the wrongs the government was doing, then he should be willing to stand up and fight them.

By that logic, do you respect Bradley Manning?
 
By that logic, do you respect Bradley Manning?

Snowden may be able to free Manning, i. e.

"I have specific details about calls made by Mr. boehner to various escort agencies in Thailand. If Mr. Manning is given a full pardon, this information can be withheld."
 
I would say it is out of control. How did you ever get to the point of killing US citizens without trial even when there is no belief they are about to undertake a murderous activity.

How can you agree to suffering surveillance. Do you know how that works? You mention some word and then they see another word and pretty soon you are 'wanted'.

It is not uncommon even for the CIA and JSOC to be at odds as to who will be killed. Your congress doesn't know what is going on. You have silently become a secret state.

Your foreign policy is horrendous and I think has created a 'self fulfilling prophesy'.

So on both fronts, your treatment of the other is awful but the situation has been set up nicely for you to become a totalitarian state always scared of what you say lest the secret police hear.

Maybe you need to sort both out together. Jeremy Scahill thinks there is a strong likelihood of the US facing much more terrorism on it's soil, not because anyone is a Muslim or is jealous of the US but simply because they have a score to settle for your covert secret operations which you usually do not even hear about. If you keep going it is only going to get worse. As it gets worse more of your freedoms will be taken from you.

P.S. I am aware that the UK is not much better than the US.

In regard to the bolded, Congress actually knew about NSA spying:

"While the breadth of the NSA’s request could lead to harsh condemnations from legislators, most senators, and the vast majority of Republicans in the chamber, are on record voting to prevent Americans from knowing anything about it." (Government secretly collecting Americans’ phone records)

"President Barack Obama on Friday forcefully defended revelations that the National Security Agency is collecting phone records and electronic communications, saying that Congress was fully briefed and the programs are limited in scope." (Obama Defends NSA Programs, Says Congress Knew About Surveillance)

"On Friday, the Senate voted to reauthorize the government's warrantless surveillance program, with hawkish Democrats joining with Republicans to block every effort to curtail the government's sweeping spying powers." (Senate to Intel Agencies: We Don't Need to Know How Often You Spy on Americans | Mother Jones)


IMO, that only shows a system of complete and utter complicity in regards to spying on Americans.
 
Nope, that's why the word "almost" was there. We can use logic and facts to come up with a guess which is all but certain. The word "almost" is the key. For someone who seems so worried about playing word games, I find it amusing how you ignore them when it works against you.

So you can almost guarantee that you know what he wants?

By that nonsensical logic, you can almost guarantee anything.

I can almost guarantee that you are a goat typing on a keyboard.

Or you are Edward Snowden himself.

:rolleyes:


So SF696 can almost guarantee that he knows what Edward Snowden wants.

LOL

Whatever pal.



The fact remains that you do not know what he wants - and you admitted you do not.

End of discussion...for now.




Have a nice day.
 
By that logic, do you respect Bradley Manning?
I do not know the full details of Manning's case as much as I believe to know Snowden's. However, what I will say is I have respect for those who are willing to own up to their actions. Whether that means you make a mistake and apologize or you break a law doing what you think is right, whatever the case may be, own up to what you've done.
 
So you can almost guarantee what he wants?
I can almost guarantee why he chose to reveal what he knew the way he did.

By that nonsensical logic, you can almost guarantee anything.
No, you can only do it for things in which you have enough evidence to support.

I can almost guarantee that you are a goat typing on a keyboard.
Goats cannot type on a keyboard, thus your example does not hold water and illustrates a lack of ability to understand basic concepts.

Have a wonderful day.
 
I can almost guarantee why he chose to reveal what he knew the way he did.

No, you can only do it for things in which you have enough evidence to support.

Goats cannot type on a keyboard, thus your example does not hold water and illustrates a lack of ability to understand basic concepts.

Have a wonderful day.

The fact remains that you do not know what he wants - and you admitted you do not.

Even though earlier, you said you did know what he wants.



Have a nice day.
 
Seems that Snowden released more info on the goverment's spying and this time it's global.

Snowden unveils NSA spy satellite SAURON program targeting US citizens | The Internet Chronicle

SAURON, or the Semi-Autonomous Ultra-high-Resolution Orbital Network, is comprised of a series of hundreds of low-orbiting cameras that can make out objects on the ground as small as 1 centimeter in size.

There are so many satellites in this network that they are able to effectively monitor the entire planet’s populated surface without interruption. According to slides Snowden shared, taken from the NSA presentation on SAURON, each spy satellite feeds directly into a data bank so large that it is able to retain the captured imagery indefinitely
.
 
Not me. I hope he's brought back to the United States and put on trial. Running away and hiding is cowardly. If he feels this strongly about the wrongs the government was doing, then he should be willing to stand up and fight them.

So what you are saying is you don't want anyone to ever do anything like that again, right?
 
I'm pulling for him and hope he survives and remains free. All Americans owe him a debt of gratitude.
 
I wonder what the Right will do now that "Baynesswayla" has become the chosen refuge of their latest idiot savant.......................
 
So what you are saying is you don't want anyone to ever do anything like that again, right?
I don't, because I hope it's never needed again.

But that's not really what I was saying. What I was saying one should own up to their actions.
 
No, Snowden claims to have done what he did to uphold the constitution. If he were a man of principle he would have stayed in the United States and faced the consequences. Instead he defected, so obviously he has no respect for the law of the United States. He is a hypocrite.

Perhaps you could enlighten me how volunteering to be locked in solitary confinement, without bed sheets and without a trial, for years, makes someone a man? I guess you think Manning is the manliest guy ever huh? I'm not sure where you got this ridiculous notion that only real men turn themselves in to the organization they're fighting, without a fight. A real man continues to resist.

What possible good could come from him letting the government crush him in a secret trial years from now?

Snowden already released the information he had to the media, information which was classified. What exactly is left, which would be relevant to the charges?

And what terrible reading comprehension you seem to possess. Clearly you are a traitor to this country, obviously planning a rebellion against the government.

Or, maybe, we can stop irrational extremism in discourse and just discuss this logically. Your hyperbole does nothing but discredit you.

How is it hyperbole if I'm quoting exactly what you said? You believe anyone who doesn't subject himself to years of solitary confinement without trial, and probably life imprisonment, is a coward. How is this any different than Manning? Both leaked something the American people needed to know, and that pissed a lot of politicians off. They'll nail him to the wall just like they're doing to Manning.

Funny how we haven't heard one single interview from Manning. You act like Snowden would have access to the press. I don't think you're that naive, I think you just want to see him suffer. It has nothing to do with "being a man".
 
So in your opinion, even if the government is committing horrible atrocities, you believe all government workers that know about it should keep their mouths shut and follow orders?

No one was committing horrible atrocities. That being said, if someone is, then that is in violation of U.S. law, and you should inform the nearest Inspector General with the appropriate clearance, which all member agencies of the Intelligence Community have. Mine, for example, works in a building approximately a 5 minute drive from my workspace, and I have the right to demand access to either him or my commanding general any time the situation warrants it.

And if they do tell someone about it, they should be handed over for that embarassed government to crush?

Here in the United States if you break the law and place our citizens in danger, we reserve the right to prosecute you for doing so. We call it the "Rule of Law", and we think it's rather important. You will be afforded free defense counsel, access to any evidence you need to call in your defense, a presumption of innocence, and a bevy of privileges and protections that are the envy of accused criminals all over the world. Even then, if you are found strictly guilty of the law, but only in such a manner that the law is being applied ridiculously or abusively, the Jury retains the right of nullification.

Man, you are one of the hardcores. State over Citizens, no exceptions.

Not at all. But the State is our actor that we authorize to make life and death decisions on our behalf in order to protect our persons, our property, and our rights. Government gets to do things like decide whether or not to go to war, whether or not to have a draft, how to go about combating criminal gangs, environmental policy, etc. In order to keep government from abusing its' power, we divide the power into three parts, and set each part against the other, so that faction may check faction, and each has incentive to do so. We do not authorize self-interested private actors to take upon themselves the right to make life / death decisions on behalf of the American people. Individual citizens do not have the right to toss overboard our system of government, any more than they have the right to overturn the joint position of all three branches of our government and place us in greater danger. As a citizen, Snowden had no right to do that to me or my family.

There were zero legal measures for Snowden to whistleblow... By your definition no one can ever whistleblow a top secret program.

Wrong again. There are multiple whistleblowing venues for those who work with classified materials to use, and they can and do get used. I've used such a venue once myself. I have the right to demand access to my Commanding General any time I feel the situation demands it, and if I do not trust my chain of command, I have the right to demand access to the cleared Inspector General who works 5 minutes from my building, and if I neither trust the IG nor my chain of command I have the right to demand cleared legal counsel. If I believe that Intelligence Oversight Abuses (EO12333 violations) are taking place at work, then I have the ability to access my chain of command, the IG, or the investigative arms such as the Naval Criminal Investigative Service. As an analyst, if my boss even tries to force me to change my conclusion, I can take him straight to his boss and the IG and have it made clear to him that he is in violation of Intelligence Community Directives (ICD's)

He could not tell anybody that didn't already know...If he's not allowed to tell anybody without the clearance, and everyone with the clearance already knows, he wouldn't be telling anybody new.

Okay, slow down for a minute and think about this.

1. If that's true, then that means that the "no oversight, I could spy on whomever I wanted" narrative that he and others have tried to sell is complete bunk. It so happens that it is true, and that both Intelligence Oversight committees as well as the court system explicitly set up to handle these kinds of programs was aware of and overwatching its implementation.

2. Snowden did not even attempt any of these venues, nor did he have any way of knowing the extent of background knowledge held by the relevant committees. We didn't find out the depth of the read-in by the Congressional committees until after the Snowden revelations - and Snowden was in no position to know, as he did not brief the committees, nor work for the DNI or Office of the NSA director who did. So not only did Snowden have no idea whether or not taking his concerns (if he had them, which I am suspicious of, more in a second) up the chain would have produced results, he made no attempt to do so. A cursory inspection of the timeline involved demonstrates that this wasn't a case of "NSA worker realizes what he's doing is wrong, tries to get someone to notice, is frustrated in his attempts, and is forced against his will to boldly stand against the group". Snowden was talking to reporters before he ever started working for the NSA, he only worked there for a couple of months - which was apparently long enough to search for and copy/paste what he thought would grab the most news, and then he split. He joined with the intention of stealing classified data, and simply stole the most classified data he could get his hands on. That's not "whistleblowing". That's "espionage".

That means it was impossible to whistleblow through legal channels. There was nothing he could've said that would've made them change their minds or cancel the program, so he had no other choice.

You always have a choice. Snowden made his. Those who are true whistleblowers who truly think that they are doing it for the good of others have a tendency A) go through the proper channels and B) be willing to go to trial for their beliefs. Snowden ran to China and then to Russia, both of whom, I would bet my life savings, pumped or are pumping him for all the information they can. Supposedly he's carrying four laptops onto which he's downloaded who-knows-what. Gosh, if all he's put out is the power point presentation identifying and explaining PRISM, and he's only doing this because he wants to expose that one particular program because he wants it public because he thinks it's evil...... why does he four laptops full of crap? If he's so worried only about the civil liberties of Verizon customers in the good ole US of A, why is he outing American collection on the Chinese? It's because PRISM was a lucky find, not his target.
 
No one was committing horrible atrocities. That being said, if someone is, then that is in violation of U.S. law, and you should inform the nearest Inspector General with the appropriate clearance, which all member agencies of the Intelligence Community have. Mine, for example, works in a building approximately a 5 minute drive from my workspace, and I have the right to demand access to either him or my commanding general any time the situation warrants it.




Here in the United States if you break the law and place our citizens in danger, we reserve the right to prosecute you for doing so. We call it the "Rule of Law", and we think it's rather important. You will be afforded free defense counsel, access to any evidence you need to call in your defense, a presumption of innocence, and a bevy of privileges and protections that are the envy of accused criminals all over the world. Even then, if you are found strictly guilty of the law, but only in such a manner that the law is being applied ridiculously or abusively, the Jury retains the right of nullification.



Not at all. But the State is our actor that we authorize to make life and death decisions on our behalf in order to protect our persons, our property, and our rights. Government gets to do things like decide whether or not to go to war, whether or not to have a draft, how to go about combating criminal gangs, environmental policy, etc. In order to keep government from abusing its' power, we divide the power into three parts, and set each part against the other, so that faction may check faction, and each has incentive to do so. We do not authorize self-interested private actors to take upon themselves the right to make life / death decisions on behalf of the American people. Individual citizens do not have the right to toss overboard our system of government, any more than they have the right to overturn the joint position of all three branches of our government and place us in greater danger. As a citizen, Snowden had no right to do that to me or my family.



Wrong again. There are multiple whistleblowing venues for those who work with classified materials to use, and they can and do get used. I've used such a venue once myself. I have the right to demand access to my Commanding General any time I feel the situation demands it, and if I do not trust my chain of command, I have the right to demand access to the cleared Inspector General who works 5 minutes from my building, and if I neither trust the IG nor my chain of command I have the right to demand cleared legal counsel. If I believe that Intelligence Oversight Abuses (EO12333 violations) are taking place at work, then I have the ability to access my chain of command, the IG, or the investigative arms such as the Naval Criminal Investigative Service. As an analyst, if my boss even tries to force me to change my conclusion, I can take him straight to his boss and the IG and have it made clear to him that he is in violation of Intelligence Community Directives (ICD's)



Okay, slow down for a minute and think about this.

1. If that's true, then that means that the "no oversight, I could spy on whomever I wanted" narrative that he and others have tried to sell is complete bunk. It so happens that it is true, and that both Intelligence Oversight committees as well as the court system explicitly set up to handle these kinds of programs was aware of and overwatching its implementation.

2. Snowden did not even attempt any of these venues, nor did he have any way of knowing the extent of background knowledge held by the relevant committees. We didn't find out the depth of the read-in by the Congressional committees until after the Snowden revelations - and Snowden was in no position to know, as he did not brief the committees, nor work for the DNI or Office of the NSA director who did. So not only did Snowden have no idea whether or not taking his concerns (if he had them, which I am suspicious of, more in a second) up the chain would have produced results, he made no attempt to do so. A cursory inspection of the timeline involved demonstrates that this wasn't a case of "NSA worker realizes what he's doing is wrong, tries to get someone to notice, is frustrated in his attempts, and is forced against his will to boldly stand against the group". Snowden was talking to reporters before he ever started working for the NSA, he only worked there for a couple of months - which was apparently long enough to search for and copy/paste what he thought would grab the most news, and then he split. He joined with the intention of stealing classified data, and simply stole the most classified data he could get his hands on. That's not "whistleblowing". That's "espionage".



You always have a choice. Snowden made his. Those who are true whistleblowers who truly think that they are doing it for the good of others have a tendency A) go through the proper channels and B) be willing to go to trial for their beliefs. Snowden ran to China and then to Russia, both of whom, I would bet my life savings, pumped or are pumping him for all the information they can. Supposedly he's carrying four laptops onto which he's downloaded who-knows-what. Gosh, if all he's put out is the power point presentation identifying and explaining PRISM, and he's only doing this because he wants to expose that one particular program because he wants it public because he thinks it's evil...... why does he four laptops full of crap? If he's so worried only about the civil liberties of Verizon customers in the good ole US of A, why is he outing American collection on the Chinese? It's because PRISM was a lucky find, not his target.

1) It doesn't have to be a horrible atrocity. He believes, like me and many Americans, that it was a violation of the constitution. We as the people have a right to know about such violations. How is IG going to change anything? This was blessed off by the president and congress. There's no one to tell. Classified programs do not magically show up in the Supreme Court.

2) Ahahahaha, a fair trial and the rule of law. You've got quite the patriotic blinders on. Bradley Manning was held for years without a trial. He's been refused the opportunity to make a public statement, and his trial is secret. Why you think Snowden's trial would be any different is beyond me. Pure love and trust for the government is my guess.

3) Yes, you and your family are in so much danger now that Americans know they were being spied on. You better lock yourself in your bunker because you're now at a huge risk. You neo-cons with your "security before liberty" positions take that **** way too far.

4) The president and congress authorized the program. Who is IG going to complain to? I'm sure they would've seen the error in their ways and shut down the program because one person had an issue with it.

5) 1) Of course the oversight committees were aware of it, they were the ones who approved it. How can you whistleblow to someone who already knows about it?
2) So if Snowden had tried to whistleblow this but failed, that would've made a difference? I think you would still be calling for his blood.

6) Snowden had 3 choices:
- Sit there like a coward with his mouth shut, while something that was inherently wrong was happening.
- Attempt to alert people that already knew about the program in your so called 'whistleblowing channels'.
- Do what he did.
A man of principle only really had the third option. The second can not produce results, because the people already knew about it that you'd be talking to. All that would do is let them know that you disapprove of their leadership.

Earlier I presented two categories that almost all of you "Snowden must pay" fall into.
1) No government employee should EVER do what he did, no matter how extreme the crime/atrocity/violation may be.
2) A government employee should do what he did only in the most extreme situations (IE: they're killing kids in dark rooms)

If you fall into category 1, I don't particularly care what you have to say, because you trust your government with no questions asked. If you fall into category 2, you simply disagree with his prioritization of this issue. I like how you and Redress keep bringing up IG as the go-to option. You're stuck in military mode where that's a great option when your commander is inappropriately touching you. Try going to IG to complain about a program the president or the general of the marine corps authorized. See how far you get.
 
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Well, when you advocate for him being prosecuted, that's what you're saying, that he shouldn't have done that.
The problem being, yet again, your binary reasoning in assuming that a scenario doesn't exist where I could justify leaking on moral, but not legal grounds. In this case I support him on neither, but that doesn't justify your all-encompassing and lazy categorization.
 
The problem being, yet again, your binary reasoning in assuming that a scenario doesn't exist where I could justify leaking on moral, but not legal grounds. In this case I support him on neither, but that doesn't justify your all-encompassing and lazy categorization.
No, I understand that. I'm saying you can't call for someone being nailed to the ****ing wall by the state AND believe he did the right thing. If he did the right thing, he shouldn't be punished. Otherwise you'd believe he should be punished for doing the right thing.

How could you say "That guy who reported the child abuse scandal should be hung from a tree!"? You can't support him and advocate his persecution at the same time.

Your problem is you never actually explain what you REALLY believe. You just post cute little pictures and ****. So I take your statements at face value.
 
No, I understand that. I'm saying you can't call for someone being nailed to the ****ing wall by the state AND believe he did the right thing. If he did the right thing, he shouldn't be punished. Otherwise you'd believe he should be punished for doing the right thing.

Your problem is you never actually explain what you REALLY believe. You just post cute little pictures and ****. So I take your statements at face value.
I've already clarified my position on the discussion at hand. I don't believe Snowden has the legal or moral upper hand in this case, and is acting largely in an self serving manner.

Hardly, although I have spent the majority of this thread batting down what you simply assert to be my beliefs on the subject. I can't blame you though, fabricating other's positions will likely yield a better result than your earlier attempt to justify Snowden's actions.
 
I've already clarified my position on the discussion at hand. I don't believe Snowden has the legal or moral upper hand in this case, and is acting largely in an self serving manner.

Hardly, although I have spent the majority of this thread batting down what you simply assert to be my beliefs on the subject. I can't blame you though, fabricating other's positions will likely yield a better result than your earlier attempt to justify Snowden's actions.

Ok, bud. You still won't clarify yourself or answer my question. You believe there should be a disconnect between what's morally right and legally right. I think that's a horribly sadistic position to have. Why would you want people who are doing the right thing to be punished? (Not saying you believe Snowden fits this)

I'll ask you this question for like the third ****ing time: Is there ANY situation you would find it acceptable for someone to whistleblow like Snowden did?
 
Ok, bud. You still won't clarify yourself or answer my question. You believe there should be a disconnect between what's morally right and legally right. I think that's a horribly sadistic position to have. Why would you want people who are doing the right thing to be punished? (Not saying you believe Snowden fits this)

I'll ask you this question for like the third ****ing time: Is there ANY situation you would find it acceptable for someone to whistleblow like Snowden did?
It's not so much a matter of wanting the individual to be punished, but not excusing illegal behavior because it aligns with my morals or personal convictions. Once you let that cat out the bag, it's a free for all so to speak.

Whistleblow? Sure, but certainly not in the manner Snowden has gone about things.
 
1) It doesn't have to be a horrible atrocity. He believes, like me and many Americans, that it was a violation of the constitution. We as the people have a right to know about such violations. How is IG going to change anything? This was blessed off by the president and congress. There's no one to tell. Classified programs do not magically show up in the Supreme Court.

No, it goes instead to FISA, which is appointed by the Chief Justice of the SCOTUS to act on his behalf. If all three branches of the government are in agreement on the Constitutionality of a program, then individuals are not authorized to place their personal definitions of Constitutionality above that decision as regards the handling of classified material. I cannot, for example, decide that the CIA putting undercover members in civilian housing violates the 3rd Amendment and therefore 'out' every undercover agent and member of the Witness Protection Program. Furthermore, the American people do not, in fact, have a right to know about individual Intelligence Oversight violations, as the harm in doing so outweighs the benefits. They have a government that they have lent authority to act on their behalf in classified matters. They have lent no such authority to Edward Snowden, meaning that he is making life and death decisions on their behalf without their consent.

2) Ahahahaha, a fair trial and the rule of law. You've got quite the patriotic blinders on. Bradley Manning was held for years without a trial. He's been refused the opportunity to make a public statement, and his trial is secret. Why you think Snowden's trial would be any different is beyond me. Pure love and trust for the government is my guess.

So far in this debate I've tried to make sure I wasn't impugning your ability to rationally dissect evidence, or interact with the idea that there might be people who keep secrets in order to protect others in anything other than an emotionally hostile manner. You may want to consider the potential benefits of reciprocating the assumption of good intentions. For one thing, it would keep you from saying idiotic things. Such as this.

3) Yes, you and your family are in so much danger now that Americans know they were being spied on. You better lock yourself in your bunker because you're now at a huge risk.

No - but the risk to my family is increased. Not only are asymetric enemy forces such as Al-Qaeda adjusting their operations to ensure that they are no longer exposed by the programs that Snowden has publicized, but the Russians and Chinese are being treated to a bonanza of our nations' secrets.

You neo-cons with your "security before liberty" positions take that **** way too far.

Fail: Libertarians are supposed to know that liberty is the ability to move, think, and do unhindered. Not a single iota of your liberty has been removed. You are not even being observed more than you already were.

4) The president and congress authorized the program. Who is IG going to complain to? I'm sure they would've seen the error in their ways and shut down the program because one person had an issue with it.

Of course not, especially given that the person apparently wasn't all that familiar the program to begin with.

5) 1) Of course the oversight committees were aware of it, they were the ones who approved it. How can you whistleblow to someone who already knows about it?
2) So if Snowden had tried to whistleblow this but failed, that would've made a difference? I think you would still be calling for his blood.

Yes, if Snowden had tried to whistleblow but failed that would make a difference as it would at least speak to intention. Since he did not, but instead apparently started working with the intention to steal classified information, regardless of what he ran across, the "constitutionality" issue is not his motive. His "intention" was not to reveal an unconstitutional program, his intention was to steal and publicize classified information. The Constitutionality question is a fig leaf he has chosen to try to excuse his actions. This is the issue you are going to have problems with - Snowden never had any intention whatsoever of being a whistleblower, and had no way of knowing whether or not attempting to do so would have been effective.

6) Snowden had 3 choices:
- Sit there like a coward with his mouth shut, while something that was inherently wrong was happening.
- Attempt to alert people that already knew about the program in your so called 'whistleblowing channels'.
- Do what he did.

What he DID was not whistleblow. What he DID was "espionage". He did not when he started nor did he ever at any point in his 'career' with Booz Allen have any intention whatsoever of attempting to whistleblow, nor did he have any way of knowing whether or not such an attempt would have been effective meaning that your option #2 is built upon false assumptions.

A man of principle only really had the third option.

To steal and publicize secrets because you want to be famous?

The second can not produce results, because the people already knew about it that you'd be talking to.

Something which snowden had no way of knowing.

Earlier I presented two categories that almost all of you "Snowden must pay" fall into.
1) No government employee should EVER do what he did, no matter how extreme the crime/atrocity/violation may be.
2) A government employee should do what he did only in the most extreme situations (IE: they're killing kids in dark rooms)

I'd say #2. But in that instance (and, this is important) you have to be willing to pay the penalty for your own decision to violate your non-disclosure agreement. If you feel strongly enough about the abuses you think you are witnessing to be willing to override all three branches of government and your superiors in such a manner that would conceivably place other Americans' lives at risk, you should at least be feeling strongly enough to go to jail.



But the logic you are running here has issues as well. For my "undercover" example above - how does your line of reason keep me from actually exposing all those names, when I really truly believe that the entire government is violating the Constitution?
 
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How is it hyperbole if I'm quoting exactly what you said?
And now you're outright lying. Not surprising from a traitor plotting to overthrow our government.

You believe anyone who doesn't subject himself to years of solitary confinement without trial, and probably life imprisonment, is a coward.
Once more, you're lying.

I said nothing of the such. Just because you keep trying to impose your own beliefs, don't twist mine into something I never said.

How is this any different than Manning?
I've already explained that.

Funny how we haven't heard one single interview from Manning. You act like Snowden would have access to the press.
You act like Snowden and Manning are in the same situations, despite me already explaining they are not.

I don't think you're that naive
But I do think you have no problem lying. As you've clearly demonstrated in this post.

I think you just want to see him suffer. It has nothing to do with "being a man".
Why would I want him to suffer? You do realize I have no problem with his action of making the public aware, right? Could you be anymore dishonest than you've been in this post? It'd be nearly impossible for you to do so.
 
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