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Thread: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    We call Snowden a criminal and condemn him because he broke the law, violated his oath and refused to work within the system. Building straw men like you are is a weak argument.
    Redress, I've asked you this before and you didn't answer: When a government agency carries out a highly contentious act that is arguably unconstitutional...and all in complete secrecy...what mechanisms are in place for citizens to challenge that act?

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    No, a person who breaks the law and runs from authorities is a coward. Snowden knew full well what he was doing. But rather than face the music, he ran.

    Our founding fathers didn't sign the Declaration of Independence and then hightail it to Mexico. They put their names on the document and then were willing to fight for what they believed in. Edward Snowden is nothing like our founding fathers.

    I don't hate what he did. I think what he did was rather irrelevant, because anyone who knows anything about technology has known this has been going on for years. All the "revelations" Snowden supposedly announced have been known for years.

    Privacy is a big issue. I am very much in favor of Internet privacy, and I do not approve of what the government has been doing. But with that said, at the same time, I also believe very strongly in standing up for convictions and Snowden did not. Snowden chose to run rather than stand up and fight for what he believes in.

    Agreed. I'm not saying the one act Snowden made was not a courageous one act. But one act does not define a man. If I'm afraid of heights and go up on a ferris wheel one time before vowing to never do so again, does that mean I'm courageous? No, it means I had a moment of strength.

    Damn straight I would. And I would look my government in the eye and sit in that court room and let my fellow Americans decide if I did the right thing or not.

    I never said that. You're putting words into my mouth which were never there.
    1) So there's no law that could ever be made, that would cause you to avoid punishment if you broke it?

    2) Our founding fathers were politicians and leaders, with power and people. One man should try to take on the government, and he's a coward if he doesn't martyr himself?

    3) Letting himself get locked in a box for years without trial wouldn't have futhered his cause. How is avoiding the government while still releasing information not standing for your convictions? He's still resisting them. You just assume that if you don't throw yourself into machine gun fire you're not 'fighting for your convictions'.

    4) No, you wouldn't, because your trial would be top secret and nobody would ever hear a word from you. You'd be a big strong man in a dark cage, comfortable that you're fighting for your convictions and really "sticking it to the man" by being held captive.
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    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    No, a person who breaks the law and runs from authorities is a coward. Snowden knew full well what he was doing. But rather than face the music, he ran.
    Ridiculous. When it is reasonable to expect that the result of your whistle blowing is to be quickly shuffled off and never heard from for years you don't stay and "face the music." Being more concerned with some manufactured notion of bravery over the revelation of the NSA's operation is adolescent at best.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    What I find stunning about the Snowden case is how much of a canary in the coal mines it has served with regards to our respect for privacy. We think nothing of entities like Mark Zuckerberg and Google selling our personal information to corporations, and condemn Snowden for alerting us to flagrant violations of our rights by our government. Where the hell are our priorities?

    And calling us Snowden a "coward" is laughable. I wonder how many here who label him thus would so willingly sacrifice their home, family and freedom to stand up for their principles.
    It's time to reestablish the 4th. These lists that are aggregated, stored, sold off, etc. have killed privacy and due to the methods through which information can be aggregated, it is essential that we reassert the 4th in stronger language. All those lists, everything that uses my data belongs to my papers and effects. If I buy stuff on Amazon, that's my purchase and my data on consuming habits. Amazon may aggregate data from my buying history (on Amazon only) to direct market to me. But they may not sell off that data to other companies. Other companies will have to accumulate their own data on me if I choose to shop at their stores. Other than that, it's my data, my papers, my effects. Companies cannot just sell it off, government cannot just have access to it. I am free to secure my papers and effects from unreasonable search and seizure.

    The data mining and data aggregation is getting out of hand and if we're not careful, none of us will have any freedom any longer. The continued attacks on the 4th by both sides of the Republocrats is one of the more dangerous avenues of government force against our liberty.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    We call Snowden a criminal and condemn him because he broke the law, violated his oath and refused to work within the system. Building straw men like you are is a weak argument.
    Pfft, our Founders didn't work within the system. Sometimes the system is broken and you have no other choice than to work against it.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    No, a person who breaks the law and runs from authorities is a coward.
    This would only be true in a situation where the "authorities" are actually fair. It isn't cowardice to not submit yourself to a corrupt justice system. It's smart.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    How do you know the system is broken?
    Because it's working heavily against the People, it is spying and collecting data that it shouldn't have been and refuses to fix the problem or move in ways in which they abide by the Constitution. When the system works against the People and cannot be forced back on track through peaceful means, the system is broken and must be replaced.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    How do you know the system is broken?
    1. I'd like to point out that you still haven't demonstrated that an effective system even exists.

    2. USA Today interviewed Thomas Drake, William Binney and J. Kirk Wiebe, three former NSA whistleblowers who "worked within the system" and failed before they went public.

    Q: Did Edward Snowden do the right thing in going public?

    William Binney: We tried to stay for the better part of seven years inside the government trying to get the government to recognize the unconstitutional, illegal activity that they were doing and openly admit that and devise certain ways that would be constitutionally and legally acceptable to achieve the ends they were really after. And that just failed totally because no one in Congress or — we couldn't get anybody in the courts, and certainly the Department of Justice and inspector general's office didn't pay any attention to it. And all of the efforts we made just produced no change whatsoever. All it did was continue to get worse and expand.
    3 NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower: We told you so

    You don't know what you're talking about.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    1) So there's no law that could ever be made, that would cause you to avoid punishment if you broke it?
    If I knowingly broke the law, I would put myself into the justice system for it. For example, if I saw a man abusing a child, I would beat him within an inch of his life...maybe a woman too. I would willingly stand trial for it. I would try to win, obviously, but I would not run away from what I felt was the right thing to do.

    2) Our founding fathers were politicians and leaders, with power and people. One man should try to take on the government, and he's a coward if he doesn't martyr himself?
    You're completely changing your own example, mostly because you saw how foolish it was to offer it in the first place. It was your words, not mine.

    And he's a coward because he ran, rather than stand up for what he believes.

    3) Letting himself get locked in a box for years without trial wouldn't have futhered his cause.
    Nor would it have happened. With the media surrounding his story, there's no way that could happen.

    How is avoiding the government while still releasing information not standing for your convictions? He's still resisting them.
    No, he's running from them. Big difference.

    4) No, you wouldn't, because your trial would be top secret and nobody would ever hear a word from you.
    False. There's no way that would happen. In fact, Snowden has put himself in greater danger of that happening since he ran. Snowden could have walked into an attorney's office, maybe invite the media, gave his statement, and the government would not have been able to do anything to violate his rights. He was an American citizen on American soil who was not engaging in hostile action against the country. The US Government would have thrown everything into his trial, but he still would have had his day in court.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Ridiculous. When it is reasonable to expect that the result of your whistle blowing is to be quickly shuffled off and never heard from for years you don't stay and "face the music." Being more concerned with some manufactured notion of bravery over the revelation of the NSA's operation is adolescent at best.
    Perhaps, but it still makes him a coward. *shrug*

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    This would only be true in a situation where the "authorities" are actually fair. It isn't cowardice to not submit yourself to a corrupt justice system. It's smart.
    There would be very few men who would ever get a trial more fair than Edward Snowden. The media circus/investigations would demand it.



    The problem here that so many of you are having is you think the government is a single entity, a big boogeyman living in front of our eyes. It's not. Our government is thousands of people, with their own power hungry agendas. It is people who need votes or who need the support of those who need votes. There are most certainly shadowy figures in government, but with the publicity this had, the spotlight would be far too bright for those shadows.

    The fact is Edward Snowden ran because he didn't want to go to jail. He wanted the glory of exposing the government, without paying the price which came attached with it. While the ignorant Americans should be thankful to Snowden for bringing to light something they should have known years ago, it doesn't change the fact he was a coward for running, nor does it change the fact he is now in much greater danger than he would be if he had simply found a good lawyer and made his statements there.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    Perhaps, but it still makes him a coward. *shrug*
    "Perhaps"....okkaaayy. So you allow for the possibility that it is an adolescent reaction to be more concerned with your interpretation of Snowden's behavior than you are with his revelation, but you're just going to go with the "coward" thing anyway, huh?

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