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Thread: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Snowdon had the legal right to speak to an IG and his congressmen. If they do not act, then you are **** out of luck. Maybe you should have elected some one else...
    Yeah, this tells me all that I need to know about your perspective. It's so dismissive and irrational. Your position is that if elected officials do not act the way the public wants them to act on a SECRET program, then the public should have elected different people. Do you know how stupid that argument is? You also argue that if said officials do not act on something that is potentially unethical and unconstitutional, then I'm "**** out of luck" as if people are just supposed to accept whatever the government decides and move on. That is one of the most mindblowingly stupid things I have ever heard. You have zero credibility on this issue. Zero.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    What atrocities? This is something that is not even illegal.

    It is not state over citizens, it is rule of law. Laws that are put in place by those we elect to do so. Laws that we are therefore responsible form.

    Snowdon had the legal right to speak to an IG and his congressmen. If they do not act, then you are **** out of luck. Maybe you should have elected some one else...
    Quote Originally Posted by a351 View Post
    You'll excuse me if I don't classify the programs in question as "horrible atrocities." Using such rhetoric does a disservice to the term and the victims of such.

    Snowden, as mentioned before to no avail, had the ability to air his grievances to the appropriate authorities. He was also under no obligation to work for the agency in question as you imply. Distancing himself from the practice was unlikely though, seeing as he has admitted he took the job specifically for the purpose of obtaining information related to the programs.

    The sensationalism is hilarious and pitiful. Justifying illegal actions by stating the low probability of success through legal means is, quite frankly, a childlike view.
    I'll answer you both at the same time because you both are saying pretty much the same thing. You two can only be in one of two categories:

    1) You believe no matter what, a government worker should never, ever, reveal secrets, no matter how bad, because he swore an oath not to.

    2) You believe that as long as YOU don't find it that bad, he should never reveal the secret, but if it's really bad to you, then it would be ok.

    I posed the extreme example of "What if they were killing kids in dark rooms and you knew about it", to see which of these two categories you fell in: no exceptions, or exceptions when I think it's bad enough.

    If you fall in the second category, the worst you can say of him is that you disagree with his prioritization of this issue, but do not necessarily condemn his tactics. He believed it was a violation of the constitution, and a very large portion of Americans agree with him. Stop acting like it's black and white wrong. If you fall in the first category, you're really just a monster and I don't have any thing to say to you anyway.

    Either way, you can not tell some random congressman who doesn't have clearance about this. You can't call IG because IG doesn't have the clearance for that top secret project. In what universe is every congressman allowed to know every top secret program? It goes by committees. The committee that you could talk to, already knew about this program, and would frankly be a little irked you were questioning their decision. There was no possible way to legally whisteblow this.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I'll answer you both at the same time because you both are saying pretty much the same thing. You two can only be in one of two categories:

    1) You believe no matter what, a government worker should never, ever, reveal secrets, no matter how bad, because he swore an oath not to.

    2) You believe that as long as YOU don't find it that bad, he should never reveal the secret, but if it's really bad to you, then it would be ok.

    I posed the extreme example of "What if they were killing kids in dark rooms and you knew about it", to see which of these two categories you fell in: no exceptions, or exceptions when I think it's bad enough.

    If you fall in the second category, the worst you can say of him is that you disagree with his prioritization of this issue, but do not necessarily condemn his tactics. He believed it was a violation of the constitution, and a very large portion of Americans agree with him. Stop acting like it's black and white wrong. If you fall in the first category, you're really just a monster and I don't have any thing to say to you anyway.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePlayDrive View Post
    Yeah, this tells me all that I need to know about your perspective. It's so dismissive and irrational. Your position is that if elected officials do not act the way the public wants them to act on a SECRET program, then the public should have elected different people. Do you know how stupid that argument is? You also argue that if said officials do not act on something that is potentially unethical and unconstitutional, then I'm "**** out of luck" as if people are just supposed to accept whatever the government decides and move on. That is one of the most mindblowingly stupid things I have ever heard. You have zero credibility on this issue. Zero.
    So you do not vote for people with similar values to you? If so, you should be able to roughly predict how they will act. It's not my credibility that is lacking. I find those who have no sense of national security to have zero credibility. I find those who excuse lawbreaking when it is convenient to have zero credibility.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post

    Snowdon had the legal right to speak to an IG and his congressmen. If they do not act, then you are **** out of luck. Maybe you should have elected some one else...
    Indeed, I should have elected someone else. Now I know that I should have, because Snowden let me know. I am a Democrat, but unless a candidate states specifically that they think such programs are wrong and demonstrates a solid reasoning as to why, I will not make the mistake of voting wrongly again. For example, Obama sounded like he thought such programs were wrong, and I believe he meant to. But, he either doesn't know his own mind, or he was deceiving. Either way, I consider it a betrayal. Thank god I now know. Wait... not god... Thank Snowden I now know.
    You can never be safe from a government that can keep you completely safe from each other and the world. You must choose.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by a351 View Post
    If you're to lazy to rebuttal, that's your problem. Kind of a coward way to end a debate though. I talked about your stated position, which was that he shouldn't have done what he did, and should be punished by the government.

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    So you do not vote for people with similar values to you? If so, you should be able to roughly predict how they will act. It's not my credibility that is lacking. I find those who have no sense of national security to have zero credibility. I find those who excuse lawbreaking when it is convenient to have zero credibility.
    Another example of why I brought up the "What if they were killing kids in dark rooms?" question, because you very clearly state no matter how bad or horrible you think it is, keep your mouth shut.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by a351 View Post
    You call it thus, but have no argument as to why. Which means you really don't have an answer. So it shall be recorded.
    You can never be safe from a government that can keep you completely safe from each other and the world. You must choose.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    So you do not vote for people with similar values to you? If so, you should be able to roughly predict how they will act.
    Have you never heard of people doing things in office that contradicted the values they espoused on the election campaign? Have you never heard of regretting voting for someone after you saw how they actually behaved? Have you never examined a politician's actions that you voted for and then decided that you do not support him or her?

    Again, the public cannot evaluate the actions of elected officials on programs that the public does not know about. To suggest otherwise - as you did - is laughable. All you have to do is look at all the Republicans who grew to dislike Bush and all the Democrats who have grown to dislike Obama to know that the public must KNOW what elected officials are doing in order to evaluate it. Your argument is just so absurd.

    It's not my credibility that is lacking. I find those who have no sense of national security to have zero credibility. I find those who excuse lawbreaking when it is convenient to have zero credibility.
    When you suggest defeatism as a means of dealing with a problem, your credibility is lacking. As far as having "no sense of national security", many security experts (many of whom worked for the NSA and other organizations previously) have argued that there is no great - if any - security risk for what Snowden did. If they're wrong, why don't you show me how what Snowden did hurt national security. Seriously, show me. Because it sounds to me like you're just regurgitating the government's bull**** fear tactics.

    Moreover, what you don't seem to understand is that I - not you - get to decide how much security I am willing to sacrifice for privacy. Whatever security this program provides me is security that I am willing to sacrifice.
    Last edited by ThePlayDrive; 07-06-13 at 12:18 PM.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    If you're to lazy to rebuttal, that's your problem. Kind of a coward way to end a debate though.

    I talked about your stated position, which was that he shouldn't have done what he did, and should be punished by the government.
    As if fabricating other's positions isn't a lazy tactic. Frankly, a jpeg is all your post deserved in reply.

    No, you plainly did not. I've repeatedly stated that his personal feelings nor mine should absolve him from legal consequences. What you posted was no more than a caricature and an attempt to pigeon hole those who disagree with your position.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    Indeed, I should have elected someone else. Now I know that I should have, because Snowden let me know. I am a Democrat, but unless a candidate states specifically that they think such programs are wrong and demonstrates a solid reasoning as to why, I will not make the mistake of voting wrongly again. For example, Obama sounded like he thought such programs were wrong, and I believe he meant to. But, he either doesn't know his own mind, or he was deceiving. Either way, I consider it a betrayal. Thank god I now know. Wait... not god... Thank Snowden I now know.
    Exactly. You need to know what elected officials are doing in order to determine if you're willing to re-elect them. It was my impression that Obama did not support such programs. Now, thanks to Snowden, I know that he not only supports them, but that he is dismissive of criticism coming from people like me who voted for him.

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