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Thread: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

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    Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    Did he knowingly choose to break laws and then run away? Then yes. If the answer is no, then no. If you believe strongly enough in *belief* that you are willing to knowingly break the law, usually for a "noble" cause, then you should be willing to stand up to the consequences of that action.
    So your verdict: Einstein should have stayed in Germany to face the hangman's noose (or the gas chamber). Got it.
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    Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    So your verdict: Einstein should have stayed in Germany to face the hangman's noose (or the gas chamber). Got it.
    So if a man rapes, beats and murders a child, and then flees to another country to escape prosecution in this one, he's not a coward for running away? I assume we can both safely agree he's a despicable human being and/or a coward for the act against the child itself.

    Is that man not a coward for his action of running away either? How about if Bernie Madoff had fled to a country with no extradition to the US, would Bernie Madoff not be a coward either? You've had my answer (which I'm not sure I actually gave, but you seem to know more about Einstein's situation that I), so now I'm interested in yours.

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    Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    So if a man rapes, beats and murders a child, and then flees to another country to escape prosecution in this one, he's not a coward for running away? I assume we can both safely agree he's a despicable human being and/or a coward for the act against the child itself.

    Is that man not a coward for his action of running away either? How about if Bernie Madoff had fled to a country with no extradition to the US, would Bernie Madoff not be a coward either? You've had my answer (which I'm not sure I actually gave, but you seem to know more about Einstein's situation that I), so now I'm interested in yours.

    The act of running away to escape persecution isn't in of itself cowardice. There is a difference between running away to avoid persecution after doing something right and running away after doing something wrong. If one runs away after they know they did something to wrong another then yes that is cowardice.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
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    Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    No oath is worthy of keeping if it is an oath to betray fellow Americans.



    Whistleblower Protection Act does not extend to people in intelligence agencies or sub-contractors.






    Do not twist my words please. I was not comparing the plight of Holocaust victims to this issue. You said you cannot think of extreme circumstances where oathbreaking is acceptable but I gave you one such extreme example. But I don't believe it has to be anything as extreme as genocide to morally break an oath. I believe it can be broken when the institution you pledged to has clearly violated its own laws. People make such oaths to uphold the law, not break it.



    He has clearly repudiated the US government's policies.



    Once again, not comparing the two governments. Was pointing out an example where oathbreaking is legitimate. I never said that this govt we have is illegitimate. But I do believe that some of its policies are.
    I am not twisting your words at all. If certain extreme circumstances like genocide can justify oath-breaking that is no excuse whatsoever for Snowden, who betrayed his oath over an attenuated bit of constitutional minutiae. Even granting that these searches were unconstitutional (I do not) the mere fact that a law is unconstitutional does not carry the same moral weight as a genocide. So no, I was not twisting your words, I was pointing out a gaping hole in your argument.

    What is going on here? The government is seizing some of Verizon's property for a search. If Verizon doesn't like it then they have standing I go to court and fight it, yet they never did. No individual rights are violates any more than when Verizon eels that same data to advertisers. This is absolutely nothing, even if there were no warrants. And, oh yeah, there WERE warrants; so this js REALLY nothing. But even if there were no warrants this is still nothing to get worked up obver. Comparing it to the holocaust is a disservice to real moral tragedies.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 07-09-13 at 06:21 PM.

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    Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    The act of running away to escape persecution isn't in of itself cowardice. There is a difference between running away to avoid persecution after doing something right and running away after doing something wrong. If one runs away after they know they did something to wrong another then yes that is cowardice.
    Defecting to Venezuela after leaking clAssified national security secrets while claiming to care about the interests of the USA can be characterized as nothing other than an act of cowardice.

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    Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Defecting to Venezuela after leaking clAssified national security secrets while claiming to care about the interests of the USA can be characterized as nothing other than an act of cowardice.
    So everyone in witness protection are cowards as well right?
    Welfare (Food Stamps, WIC, etc...) are not entitlements. They are taxpayer funded handouts and shouldn't be called entitlements at all. Social Security and Veteran's benefits are 'Entitlements' because the people receiving them are entitled to them. They were earned and paid for by the recipients.

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    Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

    Quote Originally Posted by RedAkston View Post
    So everyone in witness protection are cowards as well right?
    No, that is a facile analogy.

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    Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[

    I really hopes that he goes to Venezuela; only makes it easier to pay him a "visit"...maybe he gets lost on his way to the Venezuelan Free Press Institute. There are tons of monuments to freedom that he could visit. Chavez's tomb is a great example- a must see for sure!

    Roads have been known to be slippery during the rainy season; I sure hope he doesn't fall and slip, it would be a shame to find that he fell and got a boo-boo in the middle of the night

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    Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    The act of running away to escape persecution isn't in of itself cowardice. There is a difference between running away to avoid persecution after doing something right and running away after doing something wrong. If one runs away after they know they did something to wrong another then yes that is cowardice.
    "Doing something right"...Snowden didn't do something indisputably "right", he did something indisputably illegal. Some people feel he should be celebrated as a hero and others think he should be considered a traitor who put American lives in danger. So who gets to make that determination of what's right and what's not? Are your morals flexible enough to bend in all directions, depending upon whether or not you agree with the act?

    I'm sorry, I'm having a hard time with your argument, for multiple reasons. First of all, Edward Snowden very clearly knew he did something which was, at least on some levels, wrong. You can argue the "right" far outshone the "wrong", and I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you on that, but there was still a level of wrongness in his actions. Second of all, if we're just going to arbitrarily assign cowardice based upon whether we agree with the action, then if we take the example of a person who murders a child because he/she claims the child was possessed, then that person does not feel they did wrong and thus, using your theory, could not be considered a coward when they fled. Finally, the problem I have with your argument is if each person gets to decide for themselves whether the fleeing action was cowardly, then why are you essentially arguing with me that Snowden is a coward?

    My philosophy is not nearly so malleable. At the end of the day, if a person truly believes they are doing the right thing, then they shouldn't run from the thing they did. It's hard for me to believe you're a man standing on principles when you break the law, if you are running from facing the consequences of said principle. I MIGHT give some credence to the argument of running so one can continue the fight, but Snowden's fleeing does not continue his fight, if anything, it diminishes it (as I explained earlier in the thread).
    Last edited by Slyfox696; 07-09-13 at 10:24 PM.

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    Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    I MIGHT give some credence to the argument of running so one can continue the fight, but Snowden's fleeing does not continue his fight, if anything, it diminishes it (as I explained earlier in the thread).
    That's a great point. He's defecting to Venezuela to protest US infringements of liberty. As if Venezuela is some bastion of liberty?

    Apparently the US is so unfree he has to leak classified information in protest and then flee, but somehow he's just fine with the level of freedom Venezuela. That's the definition of a hypocrite.

    If I were one of these guys defending Snowden, I'd just be embarrassed at this point.

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