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Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

Snowdon had the legal right to speak to an IG and his congressmen. If they do not act, then you are **** out of luck. Maybe you should have elected some one else...
Yeah, this tells me all that I need to know about your perspective. It's so dismissive and irrational. Your position is that if elected officials do not act the way the public wants them to act on a SECRET program, then the public should have elected different people. Do you know how stupid that argument is? You also argue that if said officials do not act on something that is potentially unethical and unconstitutional, then I'm "**** out of luck" as if people are just supposed to accept whatever the government decides and move on. That is one of the most mindblowingly stupid things I have ever heard. You have zero credibility on this issue. Zero.
 
What atrocities? This is something that is not even illegal.

It is not state over citizens, it is rule of law. Laws that are put in place by those we elect to do so. Laws that we are therefore responsible form.

Snowdon had the legal right to speak to an IG and his congressmen. If they do not act, then you are **** out of luck. Maybe you should have elected some one else...
You'll excuse me if I don't classify the programs in question as "horrible atrocities." Using such rhetoric does a disservice to the term and the victims of such.

Snowden, as mentioned before to no avail, had the ability to air his grievances to the appropriate authorities. He was also under no obligation to work for the agency in question as you imply. Distancing himself from the practice was unlikely though, seeing as he has admitted he took the job specifically for the purpose of obtaining information related to the programs.

The sensationalism is hilarious and pitiful. Justifying illegal actions by stating the low probability of success through legal means is, quite frankly, a childlike view.

I'll answer you both at the same time because you both are saying pretty much the same thing. You two can only be in one of two categories:

1) You believe no matter what, a government worker should never, ever, reveal secrets, no matter how bad, because he swore an oath not to.

2) You believe that as long as YOU don't find it that bad, he should never reveal the secret, but if it's really bad to you, then it would be ok.

I posed the extreme example of "What if they were killing kids in dark rooms and you knew about it", to see which of these two categories you fell in: no exceptions, or exceptions when I think it's bad enough.

If you fall in the second category, the worst you can say of him is that you disagree with his prioritization of this issue, but do not necessarily condemn his tactics. He believed it was a violation of the constitution, and a very large portion of Americans agree with him. Stop acting like it's black and white wrong. If you fall in the first category, you're really just a monster and I don't have any thing to say to you anyway.

Either way, you can not tell some random congressman who doesn't have clearance about this. You can't call IG because IG doesn't have the clearance for that top secret project. In what universe is every congressman allowed to know every top secret program? It goes by committees. The committee that you could talk to, already knew about this program, and would frankly be a little irked you were questioning their decision. There was no possible way to legally whisteblow this.
 
I'll answer you both at the same time because you both are saying pretty much the same thing. You two can only be in one of two categories:

1) You believe no matter what, a government worker should never, ever, reveal secrets, no matter how bad, because he swore an oath not to.

2) You believe that as long as YOU don't find it that bad, he should never reveal the secret, but if it's really bad to you, then it would be ok.

I posed the extreme example of "What if they were killing kids in dark rooms and you knew about it", to see which of these two categories you fell in: no exceptions, or exceptions when I think it's bad enough.

If you fall in the second category, the worst you can say of him is that you disagree with his prioritization of this issue, but do not necessarily condemn his tactics. He believed it was a violation of the constitution, and a very large portion of Americans agree with him. Stop acting like it's black and white wrong. If you fall in the first category, you're really just a monster and I don't have any thing to say to you anyway.
strawman1.jpg
 
Yeah, this tells me all that I need to know about your perspective. It's so dismissive and irrational. Your position is that if elected officials do not act the way the public wants them to act on a SECRET program, then the public should have elected different people. Do you know how stupid that argument is? You also argue that if said officials do not act on something that is potentially unethical and unconstitutional, then I'm "**** out of luck" as if people are just supposed to accept whatever the government decides and move on. That is one of the most mindblowingly stupid things I have ever heard. You have zero credibility on this issue. Zero.

So you do not vote for people with similar values to you? If so, you should be able to roughly predict how they will act. It's not my credibility that is lacking. I find those who have no sense of national security to have zero credibility. I find those who excuse lawbreaking when it is convenient to have zero credibility.
 
Snowdon had the legal right to speak to an IG and his congressmen. If they do not act, then you are **** out of luck. Maybe you should have elected some one else...

Indeed, I should have elected someone else. Now I know that I should have, because Snowden let me know. I am a Democrat, but unless a candidate states specifically that they think such programs are wrong and demonstrates a solid reasoning as to why, I will not make the mistake of voting wrongly again. For example, Obama sounded like he thought such programs were wrong, and I believe he meant to. But, he either doesn't know his own mind, or he was deceiving. Either way, I consider it a betrayal. Thank god I now know. Wait... not god... Thank Snowden I now know.
 

If you're to lazy to rebuttal, that's your problem. Kind of a coward way to end a debate though. I talked about your stated position, which was that he shouldn't have done what he did, and should be punished by the government.

So you do not vote for people with similar values to you? If so, you should be able to roughly predict how they will act. It's not my credibility that is lacking. I find those who have no sense of national security to have zero credibility. I find those who excuse lawbreaking when it is convenient to have zero credibility.

Another example of why I brought up the "What if they were killing kids in dark rooms?" question, because you very clearly state no matter how bad or horrible you think it is, keep your mouth shut.
 

You call it thus, but have no argument as to why. Which means you really don't have an answer. So it shall be recorded.
 
So you do not vote for people with similar values to you? If so, you should be able to roughly predict how they will act.
Have you never heard of people doing things in office that contradicted the values they espoused on the election campaign? Have you never heard of regretting voting for someone after you saw how they actually behaved? Have you never examined a politician's actions that you voted for and then decided that you do not support him or her?

Again, the public cannot evaluate the actions of elected officials on programs that the public does not know about. To suggest otherwise - as you did - is laughable. All you have to do is look at all the Republicans who grew to dislike Bush and all the Democrats who have grown to dislike Obama to know that the public must KNOW what elected officials are doing in order to evaluate it. Your argument is just so absurd.

It's not my credibility that is lacking. I find those who have no sense of national security to have zero credibility. I find those who excuse lawbreaking when it is convenient to have zero credibility.
When you suggest defeatism as a means of dealing with a problem, your credibility is lacking. As far as having "no sense of national security", many security experts (many of whom worked for the NSA and other organizations previously) have argued that there is no great - if any - security risk for what Snowden did. If they're wrong, why don't you show me how what Snowden did hurt national security. Seriously, show me. Because it sounds to me like you're just regurgitating the government's bull**** fear tactics.

Moreover, what you don't seem to understand is that I - not you - get to decide how much security I am willing to sacrifice for privacy. Whatever security this program provides me is security that I am willing to sacrifice.
 
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If you're to lazy to rebuttal, that's your problem. Kind of a coward way to end a debate though.

I talked about your stated position, which was that he shouldn't have done what he did, and should be punished by the government.
As if fabricating other's positions isn't a lazy tactic. Frankly, a jpeg is all your post deserved in reply.

No, you plainly did not. I've repeatedly stated that his personal feelings nor mine should absolve him from legal consequences. What you posted was no more than a caricature and an attempt to pigeon hole those who disagree with your position.
 
Indeed, I should have elected someone else. Now I know that I should have, because Snowden let me know. I am a Democrat, but unless a candidate states specifically that they think such programs are wrong and demonstrates a solid reasoning as to why, I will not make the mistake of voting wrongly again. For example, Obama sounded like he thought such programs were wrong, and I believe he meant to. But, he either doesn't know his own mind, or he was deceiving. Either way, I consider it a betrayal. Thank god I now know. Wait... not god... Thank Snowden I now know.
Exactly. You need to know what elected officials are doing in order to determine if you're willing to re-elect them. It was my impression that Obama did not support such programs. Now, thanks to Snowden, I know that he not only supports them, but that he is dismissive of criticism coming from people like me who voted for him.
 
Another example of why I brought up the "What if they were killing kids in dark rooms?" question, because you very clearly state no matter how bad or horrible you think it is, keep your mouth shut.

No, killing kids in a dark room is clearly illegal. You used that example because you wanted to appeal to emotion and up the rhetoric since you really have nothing else.
 
As if fabricating other's positions isn't a lazy tactic. Frankly, a jpeg is all your post deserved in reply.

No, you plainly did not. I've repeatedly stated that his personal feelings nor mine should absolve him from legal consequences. What you posted was no more than a caricature and an attempt to pigeon hole those who disagree with your position.

See? Good, you fit in category 1. A person should never whistleblow, no matter how bad something is. This is what I said about your position from the very beginning. I'm glad that after 5 posts you finally balls'd up and admitted it.


No, killing kids in a dark room is clearly illegal. You used that example because you wanted to appeal to emotion and up the rhetoric since you really have nothing else.
And he, like me, and many other Americans, believe that prism is clearly illegal. So you fit into category 2. You simply disagree about his prioritization of this problem, you don't disagree with his tactics.
 
As if fabricating other's positions isn't a lazy tactic. Frankly, a jpeg is all your post deserved in reply.

No, you plainly did not. I've repeatedly stated that his personal feelings nor mine should absolve him from legal consequences. What you posted was no more than a caricature and an attempt to pigeon hole those who disagree with your position.

All you had to do was include a third alternative into which you fit with your straw man picture. But, you didn't, and I personally don't see one.
 
See? Good, you fit in category 1. A person should never whistleblow, no matter how bad something is. This is what I said about your position from the very beginning.
I've never stated such. You're conflating (purposely I assume) the difference between legal and personal/moral judgement. When pigeonholing is all ya got.. :shrug:
 
And he, like me, and many other Americans, believe that prism is clearly illegal. So you fit into category 2. You simply disagree about his prioritization of this problem, you don't disagree with his tactics.

Your beliefs are entirely irrelevant. You do not get to make that determination. I reject your categories, since they have nothing to do with my beliefs. The fact you have to make things up is very telling.
 
All you had to do was include a third alternative into which you fit with your straw man picture. But, you didn't, and I personally don't see one.
You can't envision a scenario in which one could justify leaking on a moral or personal level, but not on legal grounds?
 
I've never stated such. You're conflating (purposely I assume) the difference between legal and personal/moral judgement. When pigeonholing is all ya got.. :shrug:
Well, when you advocate for him being prosecuted, that's what you're saying, that he shouldn't have done that.

Your beliefs are entirely irrelevant. You do not get to make that determination. I reject your categories, since they have nothing to do with my beliefs. The fact you have to make things up is very telling.

And your beliefs are relevant? You believe the kids scenario is completely different because it's "clearly illegal." We believe spying on Americans is clearly illegal.
 
You can't envision a scenario in which one could justify leaking on a moral or personal level, but not on legal grounds?

You don't justify the leaking. You think he shouldn't have done it. So, any such scenario I might envision wouldn't apply to you.

My understanding of your statements is that you are in the camp of people who are against Snowden having revealed his information. RA described two mind sets for people in that camp. You just described a person whose mind set places them outside that camp.

If you believe he should have done it on a moral or personal level and that he shouldn't have done it on a legal level, then you are of two minds. Once you decide which mind will win out, then we can discuss whether you are inside the camp RA laid out, and if applicable, which of the two categories in that camp to which you belong.

So, do you support the capture, prosecution and conviction of Snowden?
 
No, the cowardly thing to do would have been to ignore his conscience and remain quiet so he could keep his six-figure salary and cushy life.

Agreed. But running away and hiding, rather than standing up to the fact what he did was still illegal, is also cowardly. Rosa Parks sat on a bus, knowing she'd be arrested. Did she run when the police got there? No, she stood up (or I guess in her case sat down) for what she believed in and she was willing to pay the price for doing what she thought was right. Rosa Parks was courageous. Edward Snowden is not.

Cowards don't speak out against tyrannical government.
Obviously they do. Of course, the USA is not a tyrannical government, so your statement really doesn't matter, but even in the manner you made it, Snowden is a coward. He broke the law and ran.

How would he fight a government that can legally incarcerate and torture its own citizens, without the possibility of appeal or due process of any kind whatsoever?
That would not happen to him. The public visibility of Edward Snowden would make that impossible.

Oh, right. My bad. I assumed you were being serious.
I was.

Edward Snowden did a courageous act, but he is not courageous. He came out with his information because he claimed to be a patriot, a true American, and yet he ran from America instead of standing up to face its justice system. That's not courage and that's not patriotism. Snowden acted once in a courageous manner, and then fled in a cowardly manner.
And calling us Snowden a "coward" is laughable. I wonder how many here who label him thus would so willingly sacrifice their home, family and freedom to stand up for their principles.
He is a coward and he's not standing up for his principles. He's tattling and running away.

So anyone who doesn't want to get locked in a box, tortured, and refused a trial for years is a coward?
No, a person who breaks the law and runs from authorities is a coward. Snowden knew full well what he was doing. But rather than face the music, he ran.

I think you're full of ****. I guess all of the founding fathers were pieces of **** for not turning themselves into the British government to be hanged.
Our founding fathers didn't sign the Declaration of Independence and then hightail it to Mexico. They put their names on the document and then were willing to fight for what they believed in. Edward Snowden is nothing like our founding fathers.

Ridiculous. You just want to see him burn because you hate what he did, it has NOTHING to do with his "courage".
I don't hate what he did. I think what he did was rather irrelevant, because anyone who knows anything about technology has known this has been going on for years. All the "revelations" Snowden supposedly announced have been known for years.

Privacy is a big issue. I am very much in favor of Internet privacy, and I do not approve of what the government has been doing. But with that said, at the same time, I also believe very strongly in standing up for convictions and Snowden did not. Snowden chose to run rather than stand up and fight for what he believes in.

If you discovered the government was doing morally wrong, or unconstitutional actions and didn't report it, you'd be a coward.
Agreed. I'm not saying the one act Snowden made was not a courageous one act. But one act does not define a man. If I'm afraid of heights and go up on a ferris wheel one time before vowing to never do so again, does that mean I'm courageous? No, it means I had a moment of strength.

If the government were torturing children in dark rooms, I imagine you'd do something.
Damn straight I would. And I would look my government in the eye and sit in that court room and let my fellow Americans decide if I did the right thing or not.

This "Patriotism and loyalty to the government REGARDLESS of what they do" is absolute bull****.
I never said that. You're putting words into my mouth which were never there.
 
Your beliefs are entirely irrelevant. You do not get to make that determination.
Actually, they are relevant. The constitutionality of programs does not get challenged unless someone first believes that there is something to challenge. You seem to think that people who think programs are unconstitutional should shut the **** up and just deal with it. Do you think that Redress?
 
We call Snowden a criminal and condemn him because he broke the law, violated his oath and refused to work within the system. Building straw men like you are is a weak argument.

Redress, I've asked you this before and you didn't answer: When a government agency carries out a highly contentious act that is arguably unconstitutional...and all in complete secrecy...what mechanisms are in place for citizens to challenge that act?
 
No, a person who breaks the law and runs from authorities is a coward. Snowden knew full well what he was doing. But rather than face the music, he ran.

Our founding fathers didn't sign the Declaration of Independence and then hightail it to Mexico. They put their names on the document and then were willing to fight for what they believed in. Edward Snowden is nothing like our founding fathers.

I don't hate what he did. I think what he did was rather irrelevant, because anyone who knows anything about technology has known this has been going on for years. All the "revelations" Snowden supposedly announced have been known for years.

Privacy is a big issue. I am very much in favor of Internet privacy, and I do not approve of what the government has been doing. But with that said, at the same time, I also believe very strongly in standing up for convictions and Snowden did not. Snowden chose to run rather than stand up and fight for what he believes in.

Agreed. I'm not saying the one act Snowden made was not a courageous one act. But one act does not define a man. If I'm afraid of heights and go up on a ferris wheel one time before vowing to never do so again, does that mean I'm courageous? No, it means I had a moment of strength.

Damn straight I would. And I would look my government in the eye and sit in that court room and let my fellow Americans decide if I did the right thing or not.

I never said that. You're putting words into my mouth which were never there.

1) So there's no law that could ever be made, that would cause you to avoid punishment if you broke it?

2) Our founding fathers were politicians and leaders, with power and people. One man should try to take on the government, and he's a coward if he doesn't martyr himself?

3) Letting himself get locked in a box for years without trial wouldn't have futhered his cause. How is avoiding the government while still releasing information not standing for your convictions? He's still resisting them. You just assume that if you don't throw yourself into machine gun fire you're not 'fighting for your convictions'.

4) No, you wouldn't, because your trial would be top secret and nobody would ever hear a word from you. You'd be a big strong man in a dark cage, comfortable that you're fighting for your convictions and really "sticking it to the man" by being held captive.
 
No, a person who breaks the law and runs from authorities is a coward. Snowden knew full well what he was doing. But rather than face the music, he ran.

Ridiculous. When it is reasonable to expect that the result of your whistle blowing is to be quickly shuffled off and never heard from for years you don't stay and "face the music." Being more concerned with some manufactured notion of bravery over the revelation of the NSA's operation is adolescent at best.
 
What I find stunning about the Snowden case is how much of a canary in the coal mines it has served with regards to our respect for privacy. We think nothing of entities like Mark Zuckerberg and Google selling our personal information to corporations, and condemn Snowden for alerting us to flagrant violations of our rights by our government. Where the hell are our priorities?

And calling us Snowden a "coward" is laughable. I wonder how many here who label him thus would so willingly sacrifice their home, family and freedom to stand up for their principles.

It's time to reestablish the 4th. These lists that are aggregated, stored, sold off, etc. have killed privacy and due to the methods through which information can be aggregated, it is essential that we reassert the 4th in stronger language. All those lists, everything that uses my data belongs to my papers and effects. If I buy stuff on Amazon, that's my purchase and my data on consuming habits. Amazon may aggregate data from my buying history (on Amazon only) to direct market to me. But they may not sell off that data to other companies. Other companies will have to accumulate their own data on me if I choose to shop at their stores. Other than that, it's my data, my papers, my effects. Companies cannot just sell it off, government cannot just have access to it. I am free to secure my papers and effects from unreasonable search and seizure.

The data mining and data aggregation is getting out of hand and if we're not careful, none of us will have any freedom any longer. The continued attacks on the 4th by both sides of the Republocrats is one of the more dangerous avenues of government force against our liberty.
 
We call Snowden a criminal and condemn him because he broke the law, violated his oath and refused to work within the system. Building straw men like you are is a weak argument.

Pfft, our Founders didn't work within the system. Sometimes the system is broken and you have no other choice than to work against it.
 
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