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Thread: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

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    Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    No, I am Alan Shore.

    No, it wasn't.







    My reading comprehension is just fine.

    Ahh, good to see you admit you plan to keep needling me. Between this and the above, I think I've proven myself right.


    As for your suggestion for the Ignore List, that may be the first decent thing you've said in the past two days.
    You totally misunderstood my post.

    Now enough with this nonsense - you want to try and personally attack me...do it in PM or in the Dungeon.

    I'll meet you in either anytime I am on the board.


    Now, back to you calling RA a liar.

    To prove a lie, you - by definition - MUST prove intent.

    Where is your unbiased, factual proof that he intended to lie?


    Have a nice day.
    Last edited by DA60; 07-09-13 at 12:32 PM.

  2. #282
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    Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    Why did they do so? The context is important. Because after just reading a little bit on Wikipedia about Einstein, it doesn't appear as if he fled at all, so much as renounced his German citizen in protest/anger after deciding not to return to Germany after traveling to the US. Snowden knowingly broke the law for reasons he claimed were patriotic, but then left the country so as to not face the American justice system.

    Again, I don't know much about either of those situations, I'm just going by what I read on Wikipedia, which is not always the most credible or thorough of sources. Could you explain further?

    And you simply could have gone back to look for it, or you could have looked for the time I re-posted it (in a post you quoted, no less) and you didn't. No, instead you repeatedly asked a question you later claimed you wouldn't have read even if you had gone back over the thread because:


    Deny it if you want, but I am not wrong. Now quit bothering me please.
    Except those are NOT the inevitable conclusions drawn from my position, which, by default, means you are misrepresenting my position.

    He committed the acts. It would be up to a jury of his peers to decide if he was guilty. That's the process.

    No, it won't. First of all, I never said for Snowden to turn himself in, I said to stay in America and face the justice system, however it plays out. There is a difference, even if Snowden would be charged with crimes, which I agree he would. Second of all, it would be up to him and his attorney(s) to convince the jury that what he did was right, and thus, should not be penalized for his actions which benefited all Americans.

    And, once more, you are deliberately misrepresenting my position. And, this time, you have no excuse.

    I do. I own MY position, not the position you erroneously keep ascribing to me.

    My position doesn't upset me at all. Your intentionally dishonest representation of it, even after I've clarified multiple times, does.

    No, I'm not.

    Manning was in the army at the time of his arrest and is being tried in a military court. You can bring Manning up 234532758023475896732405280973 more times and it won't change the fact he and Snowden are in different situations.
    1) Einstein left because he was a Jew in a country where it was a crime to be a Jew. According to you, he's a coward if he didn't stay and fight it in the German legal system. Apparently, he ran like a little bitch to the US.

    2) You've spent most of your time rambling about "that's not my position", and yet have refused to provide any real arguments to why you believe what you do. Snowden, like Einstein, is guilty. Turning themselves into a government that wants to harm them for that guilt solves nothing.

    3) Are you really claiming that the government can't make Snowden's trial closed to the public? You're so positive it'll be an open-to-the-media trial, I want to know how. Why would the government allow a top secret program to be discussed in open court? Extremely naive and ill-informed position.

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    You totally misunderstood my post.

    Now enough with this nonsense - you want to try and personally attack me...do it in PM or in the Dungeon.

    I'll meet you in either anytime I am on the board.


    Now, back to you calling RA a liar.

    To prove a lie, you - by definition - MUST prove intent.

    Where is your unbiased, factual proof that he intended to lie?


    Have a nice day.
    I've just about given up on him. He doesn't put forth any arguments, evidence, or anecdotes of any kind. He makes vague position statements, then continues to cry for pages if you make any logical inferences from it.

    I REALLY like the Einstein/Snowden comparison however that Geoist made earlier. According to the statists in this thread, Einstein must have been a coward for fleeing to the US to avoid persecution for his obvious crime of being a Jew. He should've stood proud and owned his Jew-ness. All of the German reporters would've covered his trial, and at the end they would all stand in applause, while the judge rules him not guilty, and the German system would've changed from that day forth.

    Or... You know, he would've been rounded up onto a cattle truck and never have been heard from again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    And I cannot see how any oath to a govt that abhors its own Constitution could be considered 'sacred.'



    How are we to end such programs if they are all top secret and everyone decided that their oath to the almighty govt was too 'sacred' to break? Sometimes it takes a person to break the rules to expose it for what it is.



    We briefly discussed such a circumstance: Nazi Germany.

    I remember watching The Boy In The Striped Pajamas with some of my students and when the mother found out about what the gassing of the Jews and asked her husband how he could go along with such a horrible program he stated, "I took an oath!"

    Oaths are just a tool for the State to coerce normally moral people into doing immoral and sometimes downright horrible things.
    This is the most insightful statement in this entire thread. The road to hell is paved with people "just following orders". It takes moral courage to stand up for the right thing.

    Well said, sir.
    Last edited by RabidAlpaca; 07-09-13 at 12:48 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  3. #283
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    Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    You totally misunderstood my post.
    No I didn't. It's quite clear what you said, no matter how inconvenient it now appears to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    1) Einstein left because he was a Jew in a country where it was a crime to be a Jew. According to you, he's a coward if he didn't stay and fight it in the German legal system. Apparently, he ran like a little bitch to the US.

    2) You've spent most of your time rambling about "that's not my position", and yet have refused to provide any real arguments to why you believe what you do. Snowden, like Einstein, is guilty. Turning themselves into a government that wants to harm them for that guilt solves nothing.

    3) Are you really claiming that the government can't make Snowden's trial closed to the public? You're so positive it'll be an open-to-the-media trial, I want to know how. Why would the government allow a top secret program to be discussed in open court? Extremely naive and ill-informed position.

    I've just about given up on him.
    Actually, I have now decided to give up on you. You have made knowingly false statements and are continuing to do so despite me correcting you multiple times. You're clearly NOT interested in discussing this objectively. What you want is to rail against the evil boogeyman government and anything which does not conform to this narrative you're pushing means submitting to caged torture. I do not doubt the sincerity of your passion in arguing your position (unlike others I've questioned in this thread), but your insistence on associating me with positions I've not taken has grown tiresome, even for me.

    If you ever wish to debate what I have ACTUALLY said, not what you want to believe I said, let me know and I'll be happy to have that discussion.
    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Now you are telling me you know better what I mean then I do when I type something?
    No, I'm tell you your words were extremely clear, and no matter how much you try to backtrack from them now, their meaning will always remain. When I told you that you would have the answer to your question if you just went back and read my previous posts, you told me that you wouldn't, because "Why waste time reading posts from people you don't respect much?".

    You said it and now you're running from it because it's inconvenient.

    Lol....that's our Sly.
    Damn straight...I'll always point out the dishonesty of posts from others.

    Anyway, back to you calling RA a liar.

    To prove a lie, you - by definition - MUST prove intent.
    I already have proven he lied, even after you asked this the first time. So, like before, go read. But you won't do that, because you really aren't interested. All you want to do is continue to follow me around and harass me. If you are genuinely interested in your answer, go read my last few posts to him. Then you will have your answer. But if you come back with another post saying the exact same thing, then it's clear you're only interested in harassing me.
    Last edited by Slyfox696; 07-09-13 at 01:20 PM.

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    Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    No I didn't. It's quite clear what you said, no matter how inconvenient it now appears to you.

    Actually, I have now decided to give up on you. You have made knowingly false statements and are continuing to do so despite me correcting you multiple times. You're clearly NOT interested in discussing this objectively. What you want is to rail against the evil boogeyman government and anything which does not conform to this narrative you're pushing means submitting to caged torture. I do not doubt the sincerity of your passion in arguing your position (unlike others I've questioned in this thread), but your insistence on associating me with positions I've not taken has grown tiresome, even for me.

    If you ever wish to debate what I have ACTUALLY said, not what you want to believe I said, let me know and I'll be happy to have that discussion.
    Now you are telling me you know better what I mean then I do when I type something?

    Lol....that's our Sly.


    Anyway, back to you calling RA a liar.

    To prove a lie, you - by definition - MUST prove intent.

    Where is your unbiased, factual proof that he intended to lie?


    Have a nice day.

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    Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    1) Einstein left because he was a Jew in a country where it was a crime to be a Jew. According to you, he's a coward if he didn't stay and fight it in the German legal system. Apparently, he ran like a little bitch to the US.

    2) You've spent most of your time rambling about "that's not my position", and yet have refused to provide any real arguments to why you believe what you do. Snowden, like Einstein, is guilty. Turning themselves into a government that wants to harm them for that guilt solves nothing.

    3) Are you really claiming that the government can't make Snowden's trial closed to the public? You're so positive it'll be an open-to-the-media trial, I want to know how. Why would the government allow a top secret program to be discussed in open court? Extremely naive and ill-informed position.



    I've just about given up on him. He doesn't put forth any arguments, evidence, or anecdotes of any kind. He makes vague position statements, then continues to cry for pages if you make any logical inferences from it.

    I REALLY like the Einstein/Snowden comparison however that Geoist made earlier. According to the statists in this thread, Einstein must have been a coward for fleeing to the US to avoid persecution for his obvious crime of being a Jew. He should've stood proud and owned his Jew-ness. All of the German reporters would've covered his trial, and at the end they would all stand in applause, while the judge rules him not guilty, and the German system would've changed from that day forth.

    Or... You know, he would've been rounded up onto a cattle truck and never have been heard from again.



    This is the most insightful statement in this entire thread. The road to hell is paved with people "just following orders". It takes moral courage to stand up for the right thing.

    Well said, sir.
    Great points.

    Dozens of prisoners - many of them completely innocent - are in legal limbo in Gitmo for over a decade, the POTUS will murder Americans without trial whenever he feels like it, rendition, torture, un-Constitutional spying on innocent Americans by the government.

    And Snowden should expect a fair trial?

    Do these people that blame him for leaving the country before he started his brave informing ever leave their parents basements/their rest homes?

    This admin has proven that they will circumvent the Constitution and moral decency whenever it suits them.

    And there can be few non-terrorists they want to kill more then Edward Snowden.

    If they could have him killed tomorrow without the world knowing they did it - I think they would in a minute.

    The U.S. government is feeding on U.S. terrorist paranoia to slowly become a quasi-police state.
    Last edited by DA60; 07-09-13 at 01:19 PM.

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    Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    The sacred obligation rests with the grantor of the oath.
    No oath is worthy of keeping if it is an oath to betray fellow Americans.

    There are proper channels for congressional oversight.
    Whistleblower Protection Act does not extend to people in intelligence agencies or sub-contractors.




    First, oaths are voluntary, not coercive. Second, I think the word for what you are doing is "godwinning." Snowden is no Oscar Schindler. It is frankly disrespectful to holocaust victims to compare their plight to the "plight" of Verizon having its phone logs searched by a computer program.
    Do not twist my words please. I was not comparing the plight of Holocaust victims to this issue. You said you cannot think of extreme circumstances where oathbreaking is acceptable but I gave you one such extreme example. But I don't believe it has to be anything as extreme as genocide to morally break an oath. I believe it can be broken when the institution you pledged to has clearly violated its own laws. People make such oaths to uphold the law, not break it.

    If a government has become as corrupt and evil as Nazi Germany then one should be willing to betray that government and be willing to own up to the fact that they have defected. You certainly couldn't claim to still be a loyal citizen of Nazi Germany, nor would you want to. Yet that is what Snowden is doing. He has neither the courage to face US justice nor the courage to repudiate the US.
    He has clearly repudiated the US government's policies.

    So the comparison to the Nazis is wrong. Genocide renders a government illegitimate but espionage does not.
    Once again, not comparing the two governments. Was pointing out an example where oathbreaking is legitimate. I never said that this govt we have is illegitimate. But I do believe that some of its policies are.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
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    Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

    Quote Originally Posted by alexa View Post
    Iceland seems to have fallen through. They were going to have a vote on making him a citizen before they went off for the Summer recess but have surprising voted not to do this.

    Snowden has applied secretly to six other countries as he says he wants to stop the US from intimidating them.

    And how can he travel if even Presidential planes are illegally searched and European countries will not give airspace to a plane that could be hiding him. Spain has said she was told Snowden was definitely on that plane.

    When refueling of the plane of a head of State is refused which could have resulted in an air crash and loss of life, how the hell in this world, bought and sold by the US, is he going to get safe passage anywhere?

    Maybe the UN will need to say that by the Geneva Convention he needs political asylum and escort him if need be?
    Iceland depends heavily on the US, big trade partner.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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    Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    Why did they do so? The context is important. Because after just reading a little bit on Wikipedia about Einstein, it doesn't appear as if he fled at all, so much as renounced his German citizen in protest/anger after deciding not to return to Germany after traveling to the US. Snowden knowingly broke the law for reasons he claimed were patriotic, but then left the country so as to not face the American justice system.

    Again, I don't know much about either of those situations, I'm just going by what I read on Wikipedia, which is not always the most credible or thorough of sources. Could you explain further?
    Inevitably, Einstein’s fame and the great success of his theories created a backlash. The rising Nazi movement found a convenient target in relativity, branding it “Jewish physics” and sponsoring conferences and book burnings to denounce Einstein and his theories. The Nazis enlisted other physicists, including Nobel laureates Philipp Lenard and Johannes Stark, to denounce Einstein. One Hundred Authors Against Einstein was published in 1931. When asked to comment on this denunciation of relativity by so many scientists, Einstein replied that to defeat relativity one did not need the word of 100 scientists, just one fact.

    In December 1932 Einstein decided to leave Germany forever (he would never go back). It became obvious to Einstein that his life was in danger. A Nazi organization published a magazine with Einstein’s picture and the caption “Not Yet Hanged” on the cover. There was even a price on his head. So great was the threat that Einstein split with his pacifist friends and said that it was justified to defend yourself with arms against Nazi aggression. To Einstein, pacifism was not an absolute concept but one that had to be re-examined depending on the magnitude of the threat.

    Albert Einstein (German-American physicist) : Coming to America -- Encyclopedia Britannica

    So instead of staying and fighting he left Germany and his fellow German Jews to escape persecution by the government. Is he a coward?
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
    http://www.wealthandwant.com/

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    Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Invisible View Post
    By the way, the people saying that Snowden should have gone through proper channels to report this info, there were not any proper channels to go through that would have worked.



    More can be seen here: Why Didn’t Snowden Go through “Proper Channels” to Blow the Whistle? | Washington's Blog
    Yes, thank you. About time this bunk about 'proper channels' gets outed.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
    http://www.wealthandwant.com/

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    Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    Inevitably, Einstein’s fame and the great success of his theories created a backlash. The rising Nazi movement found a convenient target in relativity, branding it “Jewish physics” and sponsoring conferences and book burnings to denounce Einstein and his theories. The Nazis enlisted other physicists, including Nobel laureates Philipp Lenard and Johannes Stark, to denounce Einstein. One Hundred Authors Against Einstein was published in 1931. When asked to comment on this denunciation of relativity by so many scientists, Einstein replied that to defeat relativity one did not need the word of 100 scientists, just one fact.

    In December 1932 Einstein decided to leave Germany forever (he would never go back). It became obvious to Einstein that his life was in danger. A Nazi organization published a magazine with Einstein’s picture and the caption “Not Yet Hanged” on the cover. There was even a price on his head. So great was the threat that Einstein split with his pacifist friends and said that it was justified to defend yourself with arms against Nazi aggression. To Einstein, pacifism was not an absolute concept but one that had to be re-examined depending on the magnitude of the threat.

    Albert Einstein (German-American physicist) : Coming to America -- Encyclopedia Britannica

    So instead of staying and fighting he left Germany and his fellow German Jews to escape persecution by the government. Is he a coward?
    Did he knowingly choose to break laws and then run away? Then yes. If the answer is no, then no. If you believe strongly enough in *belief* that you are willing to knowingly break the law, usually for a "noble" cause, then you should be willing to stand up to the consequences of that action.

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