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Thread: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Moderator's Warning:
    Knock off the personal attacks.
    Welfare (Food Stamps, WIC, etc...) are not entitlements. They are taxpayer funded handouts and shouldn't be called entitlements at all. Social Security and Veteran's benefits are 'Entitlements' because the people receiving them are entitled to them. They were earned and paid for by the recipients.

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    Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

    I think that all this surveillance is about the civil unrest which the futurists see on the horizon.

    Don't forget that it was Bill Clinton who first introduced the Patriot Act and appointed a “domestic military czar”.

    Google:
    Presidential Decision Directive 62, Protection Against Unconventional Threats to the Homeland and Overseas, dated May 1998, and Presidential Decision Directive 39.

    The Occupy Movement is the largest threat faced by the Ruling Class since the 1960's.

    The establishment also realizes that the minority population has suffered the greatest during this economic collapse, (43% unemeployment among black youth) and that the main reason why the Occupy Movement has not enjoyed "feverish" support by the minority population is because they don't want to destroy the first black presidency.

    It is also important to introduce and pass immigration reform and thus give illegal immigrants something to lose and to discourage them from participating in the Occupy Movement. We can't forget the Latino protests in 2006 and where they shut down major cities with peaceful protests.

    The tensions within society are gonna be huge on the day after Obama leaves office.

    The Republican Party (The Corporatist Party) has decided to walk away from the Christian Right. The Republicans know full well that as the economy worsens, people like Billy Graham and The Boys will begin to ask "What Would Jesus Do?" and not be so much concerned about cultural issues such as abortion and whatever.

    The Republican Party needs to rebrand itself from the "Religious" brand and become a "Personal Security - Law and Order" brand.

    As the economy continues to crumble, it will become a battle between the Occupy Folks and the Law and Order Folks.

    And in the meantime, both political parties will use the remaining time left in the Obama presidency to get all the ducks in order and introduce all the necessary anti-terror legislation required for the battles which lay ahead.

    Calm
    Last edited by calm; 07-09-13 at 06:16 AM.

  3. #273
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    Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    No, I called you a liar for deliberately twisting my position to better suit your own agenda (also for claiming you were quoting exactly what I said when you now admit you were paraphrasing). I very clearly explained, multiple times even if I remember correctly, what my position was. You turned that into me saying if someone doesn't voluntary submit to being thrown in a cage and tortured/solitary confinement for life they are a coward. It was a blatant misrepresentation of what I said, and could have only been done intentionally, with you providing even further proof of this in this particular post when you were much closer to my position when listing A and B below. That is why I said you lied and it's also why I made up that ridiculous assertion about you being a traitor plotting to overthrow the government.

    He was trolling. He all but admitted as much in other thread that he's been trolling me today.

    No, I told him exactly where he could find it. He was a troll, I did not feel the need to explain myself to him. I have already done so to you, because while we obviously disagree heartily, your intentions in this thread are at least honest (even if your words aren't always so).

    Yes. This is not hard to understand and has absolutely nothing to do with voluntarily submitting to the government or caged torture. Just because you're willing to stand trial doesn't mean you aren't willing to fight for your freedom. Going back to my example of kicking the crap out of a child abuser, I assure you I would fight with all I have to be acquitted of a crime, but I would do so in a courtroom (or through the proper legal channels).
    Close, but not quite. While you did not accurately state my position here, it at least is an understandable mistake.

    I made it very clear that everything Snowden has said, he could have said all at one time while not leaving the country. I also said the media around Edward Snowden, media who is always desperate for a story, especially a big one, would constantly be investigating this case. With Snowden being such a public interest story, the government would be hard pressed to try any of the dirty tricks (jailed for years without representation, tortured, etc.) to which you claimed he would be subjected.

    They are not mutually exclusive. But until it's no longer a law, it should be followed or should be broken with the expectations of consequences. Arbitrary enforcement of laws based upon political preference is an incredibly dangerous path upon which to start.

    They should go through the legal process. If the district attorney chooses not to bring charges, then I would agree with that attorney. But the legal process should play out, and it should not be subverted based upon one individual's personal morals or ethics, and certainly never their politics.

    Considering you didn't quite understand what I was saying, perhaps you'll reconsider.

    And as I've already pointed out to you, Bradley Manning and Edward Snowden are in completely different situations.
    1) You're not upset that I misrepresented your position (because I didn't), you're upset about the inevitable conclusions drawn from your position. Snowden has ZERO chance of winning a trial. He's guilty, plain and simple. Turning himself in will be volunteering to be locked in a cage forever. So YES, that's EXACTLY what you are saying: "If you don't want to get locked in a cage for the rest of your life, you're a coward". Just own your position. If it upsets you, change your position.

    2) LOL, "With Snowden being such a public interest story, the government would be hard pressed to try any of the dirty tricks" You're out of your mind. The media had an equal amount of interest in Manning, and yet there have been no interviews, trial was delayed for years, he was tortured, and his trial is secret. I'm offering legitimate case studies here of where we've seen how the government handles whistleblowers, and you are providing no evidence whatsoever. Plugging your ears and saying "Nuh, uh! Nuh uh! My government wouldn't do that!" is not an argument.

    3) Manning and Snowden were in very similar situations. They both worked for the government with confidentiality agreements, and they both violated those agreements in the interest of the American people. Just because you don't want to admit it because it damages your viewpoint, isn't my problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  4. #274
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    Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    And I cannot see how any oath to a govt that abhors its own Constitution could be considered 'sacred.'

    The sacred obligation rests with the grantor of the oath.

    How are we to end such programs if they are all top secret and everyone decided that their oath to the almighty govt was too 'sacred' to break? Sometimes it takes a person to break the rules to expose it for what it is.
    There are proper channels for congressional oversight.



    We briefly discussed such a circumstance: Nazi Germany.

    I remember watching The Boy In The Striped Pajamas with some of my students and when the mother found out about what the gassing of the Jews and asked her husband how he could go along with such a horrible program he stated, "I took an oath!"

    Oaths are just a tool for the State to coerce normally moral people into doing immoral and sometimes downright horrible things.
    First, oaths are voluntary, not coercive. Second, I think the word for what you are doing is "godwinning." Snowden is no Oscar Schindler. It is frankly disrespectful to holocaust victims to compare their plight to the "plight" of Verizon having its phone logs searched by a computer program.

    If a government has become as corrupt and evil as Nazi Germany then one should be willing to betray that government and be willing to own up to the fact that they have defected. You certainly couldn't claim to still be a loyal citizen of Nazi Germany, nor would you want to. Yet that is what Snowden is doing. He has neither the courage to face US justice nor the courage to repudiate the US.

    So the comparison to the Nazis is wrong. Genocide renders a government illegitimate but espionage does not.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 07-09-13 at 08:53 AM.

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    Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    Einstein fled Nazi Germany. Saul fled Damascus. Neither are considered 'cowards.'
    Why did they do so? The context is important. Because after just reading a little bit on Wikipedia about Einstein, it doesn't appear as if he fled at all, so much as renounced his German citizen in protest/anger after deciding not to return to Germany after traveling to the US. Snowden knowingly broke the law for reasons he claimed were patriotic, but then left the country so as to not face the American justice system.

    Again, I don't know much about either of those situations, I'm just going by what I read on Wikipedia, which is not always the most credible or thorough of sources. Could you explain further?

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    WRONG

    I said I did not see your original response, which I apologized for.
    And you simply could have gone back to look for it, or you could have looked for the time I re-posted it (in a post you quoted, no less) and you didn't. No, instead you repeatedly asked a question you later claimed you wouldn't have read even if you had gone back over the thread because:
    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    I doubt it.

    Why waste time reading posts from people you don't respect much?
    Deny it if you want, but I am not wrong. Now quit bothering me please.
    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    1) You're not upset that I misrepresented your position (because I didn't), you're upset about the inevitable conclusions drawn from your position.
    Except those are NOT the inevitable conclusions drawn from my position, which, by default, means you are misrepresenting my position.

    Snowden has ZERO chance of winning a trial. He's guilty, plain and simple.
    He committed the acts. It would be up to a jury of his peers to decide if he was guilty. That's the process.

    Turning himself in will be volunteering to be locked in a cage forever.
    No, it won't. First of all, I never said for Snowden to turn himself in, I said to stay in America and face the justice system, however it plays out. There is a difference, even if Snowden would be charged with crimes, which I agree he would. Second of all, it would be up to him and his attorney(s) to convince the jury that what he did was right, and thus, should not be penalized for his actions which benefited all Americans.

    So YES, that's EXACTLY what you are saying: "If you don't want to get locked in a cage for the rest of your life, you're a coward".
    And, once more, you are deliberately misrepresenting my position. And, this time, you have no excuse.

    Just own your position.
    I do. I own MY position, not the position you erroneously keep ascribing to me.

    If it upsets you, change your position.
    My position doesn't upset me at all. Your intentionally dishonest representation of it, even after I've clarified multiple times, does.

    2) LOL, "With Snowden being such a public interest story, the government would be hard pressed to try any of the dirty tricks" You're out of your mind.
    No, I'm not.

    The media had an equal amount of interest in Manning
    Manning was in the army at the time of his arrest and is being tried in a military court. You can bring Manning up 234532758023475896732405280973 more times and it won't change the fact he and Snowden are in different situations.

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    Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

    By the way, the people saying that Snowden should have gone through proper channels to report this info, there were not any proper channels to go through that would have worked.

    For example, when NSA whistleblower Thomas Drake tried to blow the whistle on fraud and corruption within the NSA – based upon the NSA spying on all Americans instead of targeting only suspected criminals – he was prosecuted under the Espionage Act.

    Drake notes:

    I differed as a whistleblower to Snowden only in this respect: in accordance with the Intelligence Community Whistleblower Protection Act, I took my concerns up within the chain of command, to the very highest levels at the NSA, and then to Congress and the Department of Defense. I understand why Snowden has taken his course of action, because he’s been following this for years: he’s seen what’s happened to other whistleblowers like me.

    By following protocol, you get flagged – just for raising issues. You’re identified as someone they don’t like, someone not to be trusted. I was exposed early on because I was a material witness for two 9/11 congressional investigations. In closed testimony, I told them everything I knew – about Stellar Wind, billions of dollars in fraud, waste and abuse, and the critical intelligence, which the NSA had but did not disclose to other agencies, preventing vital action against known threats. If that intelligence had been shared, it may very well have prevented 9/11.

    But as I found out later, none of the material evidence I disclosed went into the official record. It became a state secret even to give information of this kind to the 9/11 investigation.

    When NSA whistleblower Russel Tice (later a key source in the 2005 New York Times report that blew the lid off the Bush administration’s use of warrantless wiretapping) questioned spying on innocent Americans, NSA tried to have him labeled “crazy”, and fired him.

    When the head of the NSA’s global digital communications program – William Binney – disclosed the fact that the U.S. was spying on everyone in the U.S. and storing the data forever, the Feds tried to scare him into shutting up:

    [Numerous] FBI officers held a gun to Binney’s head as he stepped naked from the shower. He watched with his wife and youngest son as the FBI ransacked their home. Later Binney was separated from the rest of his family, and FBI officials pressured him to implicate one of the other complainants in criminal activity. During the raid, Binney attempted to report to FBI officials the crimes he had witnessed at NSA, in particular the NSA’s violation of the constitutional rights of all Americans. However, the FBI wasn’t interested in these disclosures. Instead, FBI officials seized Binney’s private computer, which to this day has not been returned despite the fact that he has not been charged with a crime.

    NSA whistleblower J. Kirk Wiebe didn’t get anywhere through proper channels either.
    More can be seen here: Why Didn’t Snowden Go through “Proper Channels” to Blow the Whistle? | Washington's Blog
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    Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

    are you in fact James Spader???

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    Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    And you simply could have gone back to look for it, or you could have looked for the time I re-posted it (in a post you quoted, no less) and you didn't. No, instead you repeatedly asked a question you later claimed you wouldn't have read even if you had gone back over the thread because:


    Deny it if you want, but I am not wrong. Now quit bothering me please.
    WRONG AGAIN, I see your reading comprehension sucks 'as well'.

    My statement was about future posts of yours, not previous ones.

    Duh.

    As for leaving you alone, forget it.

    If I see a post of yours that is wrong or stupid OR you keep calling people liars (when you cannot prove it) and I feel like it - I am commenting on it.

    You don't like it - tough...use the Ignore List.




    Have a nice day.
    Last edited by DA60; 07-09-13 at 11:10 AM.

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    Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

    I asked him if he was James Spader the actor because he is using his picture . Is that an attack??

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    Re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:

    Quote Originally Posted by tommytunes View Post
    are you in fact James Spader???
    No, I am Alan Shore.

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    WRONG AGAIN, I see your reading comprehension sucks 'as well'.

    My statement was about future posts of yours, not previous ones.

    Duh.
    No, it wasn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Sorry, don't remember seeing that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    While I appreciate your apology, if you had just taken a few moments to review the thread, like I constantly told you to, you'd have seen it.
    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    I doubt it.

    Why waste time reading posts from people you don't respect much?
    My reading comprehension is just fine.

    As for leaving you alone, forget it.
    Ahh, good to see you admit you plan to keep needling me. Between this and the above, I think I've proven myself right.


    As for your suggestion for the Ignore List, that may be the first decent thing you've said in the past two days.

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