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Thread: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Yeah, their logic doesn't make any sense at all. Apparently the "manly" thing to do is turn yourself in without a fight. Even our own military is taught SERE, survive, escape, resist and evade. Snowden is doing all 4. We should let our soldiers know about the change in policy.

    "If you've attacked the enemy, be sure to turn yourself in and suffer the horrible consequences of your actions when they torture and kill you. It's the manly thing to do!"



    It came from you and the others saying it's cowardly to not turn yourself in to the government that's trying to hurt you. It's completely irrational.

    If he'd have a fair, prompt and public trial, you MIGHT be right. But he won't. He'll be held in solitary for years like Manning, refused access to the press, and given a secret trial. There is absolutely zero benefit to his cause by turning himself in. He will disappear. Better to resist and evade, while still fighting.
    Why do I think I won't be reading those same people explaining how those of the "Boston Tea Party" were cowards and hypocrites for not turning themselves over to the British Crown to "own up to what they did" and to justify their actions to British authorities?

    I would think they MUST think that "Deep Throat" in Watergate was the ultimate hypocrite and coward for not "owning up" to exposing the White House.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    24 posts...whatever.

    You made the accusation...it's up to you to prove it.

    you accuse someone of lying...and when I ask for proof, you produce nothing to prove your accusation.

    Noted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    You ask for proof, and when told where to find it, you simply choose to ignore it.

    Noted.



    Have a nice day.
    This is why I consider you a troll. I'm now done with you in this thread as well.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Surtr View Post
    Or maybe because we have extradition treaties with Germany, legally obligating them to turn him over.
    Extradition can legally be denied if political asylum is granted. France ALWAYS does so in cases with a death penalty unless the USA agrees not to seek death - as one example.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Why do I think I won't be reading those same people explaining how those of the "Boston Tea Party" were cowards and hypocrites for not turning themselves over to the British Crown to "own up to what they did" and to justify their actions to British authorities?

    I would think they MUST think that "Deep Throat" in Watergate was the ultimate hypocrite and coward for not "owning up" to exposing the White House.
    No, they only like to use hyperbole like "traitor", "coward" and "terrorist" when it's against someone they don't like. To the neo-con brain, nothing is more important than security. They don't care what it costs, either financially or in liberties.

    I believe it comes from an innate sense of fear. They believe Snowden has opened them up to the big bad terrorists the politicians were keeping at bay with their heroic measures.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    This is why I consider you a troll. I'm now done with you in this thread as well.
    LOL, no, you just called me a liar for paraphrasing your position. He called you on it, asking for proof, and you just continued on with your hyperbole.

    You've made it very clear that you believe:

    A) Anyone who breaks the law should stand trial, no matter how righteous the cause
    B) Snowden would have an open, public trial where he could plead his case to the American people

    A is just ridiculous. If something is morally wrong, it shouldn't be a law. To go back to the 'killing kids in dark rooms' scenario. If that program were secret, and someone whistleblew it, they should not be tried because they were reporting illegal activity.

    B is even more ridiculous. Since when has the government allowed trials involving top secret government programs be public? Manning's trial is even less sensitive in nature and it's completely on lock down.

    There is no chance of fair, open trial for Snowden.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    Not me. I hope he's brought back to the United States and put on trial. Running away and hiding is cowardly. If he feels this strongly about the wrongs the government was doing, then he should be willing to stand up and fight them.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    LOL, no, you just called me a liar for paraphrasing your position. He called you on it, asking for proof, and you just continued on with your hyperbole.

    You've made it very clear that you believe:

    A) Anyone who breaks the law should stand trial, no matter how righteous the cause
    B) Snowden would have an open, public trial where he could plead his case to the American people

    A is just ridiculous. If something is morally wrong, it shouldn't be a law. To go back to the 'killing kids in dark rooms' scenario. If that program were secret, and someone whistleblew it, they should not be tried because they were reporting illegal activity.

    B is even more ridiculous. Since when has the government allowed trials involving top secret government programs be public? Manning's trial is even less sensitive in nature and it's completely on lock down.

    There is no chance of fair, open trial for Snowden.
    You nailed it.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    LOL, no, you just called me a liar for paraphrasing your position.
    No, I called you a liar for deliberately twisting my position to better suit your own agenda (also for claiming you were quoting exactly what I said when you now admit you were paraphrasing). I very clearly explained, multiple times even if I remember correctly, what my position was. You turned that into me saying if someone doesn't voluntary submit to being thrown in a cage and tortured/solitary confinement for life they are a coward. It was a blatant misrepresentation of what I said, and could have only been done intentionally, with you providing even further proof of this in this particular post when you were much closer to my position when listing A and B below. That is why I said you lied and it's also why I made up that ridiculous assertion about you being a traitor plotting to overthrow the government.

    He called you on it
    He was trolling. He all but admitted as much in other thread that he's been trolling me today.

    you just continued on with your hyperbole.
    No, I told him exactly where he could find it. He was a troll, I did not feel the need to explain myself to him. I have already done so to you, because while we obviously disagree heartily, your intentions in this thread are at least honest (even if your words aren't always so).

    You've made it very clear that you believe:

    A) Anyone who breaks the law should stand trial, no matter how righteous the cause
    Yes. This is not hard to understand and has absolutely nothing to do with voluntarily submitting to the government or caged torture. Just because you're willing to stand trial doesn't mean you aren't willing to fight for your freedom. Going back to my example of kicking the crap out of a child abuser, I assure you I would fight with all I have to be acquitted of a crime, but I would do so in a courtroom (or through the proper legal channels).
    B) Snowden would have an open, public trial where he could plead his case to the American people
    Close, but not quite. While you did not accurately state my position here, it at least is an understandable mistake.

    I made it very clear that everything Snowden has said, he could have said all at one time while not leaving the country. I also said the media around Edward Snowden, media who is always desperate for a story, especially a big one, would constantly be investigating this case. With Snowden being such a public interest story, the government would be hard pressed to try any of the dirty tricks (jailed for years without representation, tortured, etc.) to which you claimed he would be subjected.

    A is just ridiculous. If something is morally wrong, it shouldn't be a law.
    They are not mutually exclusive. But until it's no longer a law, it should be followed or should be broken with the expectations of consequences. Arbitrary enforcement of laws based upon political preference is an incredibly dangerous path upon which to start.

    To go back to the 'killing kids in dark rooms' scenario. If that program were secret, and someone whistleblew it, they should not be tried because they were reporting illegal activity.
    They should go through the legal process. If the district attorney chooses not to bring charges, then I would agree with that attorney. But the legal process should play out, and it should not be subverted based upon one individual's personal morals or ethics, and certainly never their politics.

    B is even more ridiculous.
    Considering you didn't quite understand what I was saying, perhaps you'll reconsider.

    Manning's trial is even less sensitive in nature and it's completely on lock down.
    And as I've already pointed out to you, Bradley Manning and Edward Snowden are in completely different situations.
    Last edited by Slyfox696; 07-09-13 at 03:25 AM.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    Perhaps...I honestly don't know to what you refer.
    Einstein fled Nazi Germany. Saul fled Damascus. Neither are considered 'cowards.'
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
    http://www.wealthandwant.com/

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    No, I called you a liar for deliberately twisting my position to better suit your own agenda (also for claiming you were quoting exactly what I said when you now admit you were paraphrasing).
    Where is your proof that he 'deliberately twisted your position'?

    You can believe someone 'deliberately' does something.

    But unless they admit to it, it is impossible to know...that's just obvious.

    He was trolling. He all but admitted as much in other thread that he's been trolling me today.
    WRONG

    I said I did not see your original response, which I apologized for.
    Last edited by DA60; 07-09-13 at 03:43 AM.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Kant asked this question once, and I don't necessarily agree with his strict interpretation that a lie cannot be appropriate in certain extreme circumstances. But a broken oath is not a lie, an oath is a sacred obligation. I cannot imagine a situation so extreme where perjury, a lie under oath, would be acceptable.
    And I cannot see how any oath to a govt that abhors its own Constitution could be considered 'sacred.'

    In any case, this is not so extreme. No human life is at stake, this is about a nosy government being nosy. Big surprise! Nobody cared when the duly elected legislature wrote the Patriot Act that made this possible. If Snowden didn't like it he should have kept his oath and worked to effect change in other, constructive and moral ways.
    How are we to end such programs if they are all top secret and everyone decided that their oath to the almighty govt was too 'sacred' to break? Sometimes it takes a person to break the rules to expose it for what it is.

    But even if there is so extreme a circumstance that requires oath breaking, then the morally correct course afterwards is to accept the punishment.
    We briefly discussed such a circumstance: Nazi Germany.

    I remember watching The Boy In The Striped Pajamas with some of my students and when the mother found out about what the gassing of the Jews and asked her husband how he could go along with such a horrible program he stated, "I took an oath!"

    Oaths are just a tool for the State to coerce normally moral people into doing immoral and sometimes downright horrible things.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
    http://www.wealthandwant.com/

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