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Thread: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    Originally Posted by Occam's Razor
    If he were detained he would lose free access to the press and ability to defend himself in the press and court of public opinion.
    Nonsense.
    That's it? Nonsense? Sounds authoritative, yet lacks credibility. and, Oh right, because Bradley Manning has had lots of access to the press.

    If your aim is to stop the gov't abuses
    ...you run away to another country? THAT'S how you fight government abuses? That's ridiculous.
    That's your opinion.

    So the second our founders were charged with treason by the crown, we should have all laid down our arms, filed back to England and first stood trial? Where was Ben Franklin during the revolution? If your aim is to continue to put pressure on the US to be more transparent in matters that directly affect it's citizens, to continue to work toward that end... you don't turn yourself in. Kinda hard to do that from jail.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Lol...a common, chat forum, figure of speech?

    Whatever pal.

    Have a nice day.
    Amusing how quickly you're no longer worried about exact meaning of words. It's almost as if you really didn't care, and were merely trolling before...interesting...
    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    So, apparently, the answer is you can't prove he is lying
    No, the answer is I already have. Just because you seem to really struggle with comprehending the written word, it doesn't give you license to dishonestly misinterpret what is said. Once more, I cannot help but wonder if you're simply trolling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    I guess that would make Albert Einstein and Saul cowards then.
    Perhaps...I honestly don't know to what you refer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Razor View Post
    That's it? Nonsense? Sounds authoritative, yet lacks credibility.
    I've already explained it multiple times throughout the thread. Go search for my previous posts.

    and, Oh right, because Bradley Manning has had lots of access to the press.
    I've already addressed this as well. While you're searching for the argument I made for your previous statement being nonsense, you can search for this as well.

    That's your opinion.
    It makes a lot more sense than your statement. What exactly is he doing on the run that he could not have done when he first came out with his claims? Is Snowden still gathering intelligence? Is he still discovering more information? The answer to both of those questions, we can logically assume, is no. So how exactly is Snowden fighting government abuses?

    So the second our founders were charged with treason by the crown, we should have all laid down our arms, filed back to England and first stood trial? Where was Ben Franklin during the revolution?
    I've already addressed this argument as well. But I'll cut you some slack on this, because while I've already posted it once, this will be the first time I repeated it.

    If you're wanting to compare our founders to Snowden, then our founders would have signed the Declaration of Independence, mailed it to England and then hightailed it down to Mexico. Our founding fathers didn't run and hide, they stood up for what they believed in, even if it meant giving up their own lives to do so.

    You could not have picked a worse example than our founding fathers to compare with Edward Snowden. They stood up before what they thought was an oppressive government and were willing to fight, and even die, for what they believed in. Edward Snowden ran away to hide.

    If your aim is to continue to put pressure on the US to be more transparent in matters that directly affect it's citizens, to continue to work toward that end... you don't turn yourself in.
    But he's not doing that. He's not putting any pressure on the US to be more transparent, he's running and hiding. If anything, he's doing more harm than good to his own cause. Unlike our founding fathers, he's not willing to stand before what he considers oppressive government and give whatever it takes to initiate change. No, he ran and hid.

    I do not have a problem with the interview he gave to the Guardian, though as I've mentioned before, he didn't really say anything which wasn't already known. What he did when he revealed what he knew was a courageous act. But instead of standing up for his actions, he ran...which is not courageous.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Do you have link(s) to unbiased, factual (not hearsay) proof that un-Constitutionally obtained data/information directly stopped 'multiple attacks'?

    Yes or no, please?
    Since you will simply discount the people who were actually involved and took part in doing so as propaganda lies by the government? You cannot disprove a non-falsifiable conspiracy theory.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Or in this case, a dude has to whistleblow on the government and run off so that he can continue to get his message out.
    sure. and in this case said dude should stop whining about the consequences off his decisions. The government isn't your mommy, if you break the rules it doesn't give that I'm-so-disappointed-look and then forgive you with a hug and a plate of cookies.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    If you're wanting to compare our founders to Snowden, then our founders would have signed the Declaration of Independence, mailed it to England and then hightailed it down to Mexico. Our founding fathers didn't run and hide, they stood up for what they believed in, even if it meant giving up their own lives to do so.
    They didn't have to, THEY WERE ALREADY IN ANOTHER COUNTRY! The seat of power and practical extent of their jurisdiction was in Briton. Not here. The hypothetical you're looking for, or the accurate one anyway, was if the founders assembled in LONDON, signed the DOI, delivered to the press... then high tailed it back to america.

    As for the founders courage, I think you would find some Officers of the Crown that would disagree with you. Was dressing up like Indians and sneaking aboard a ship in the dead of night hiding? or standing up?

    Snipers were considered unethical in open combat, yet without them, we'd have never lasted the first year.

    Same goes for guerrilla warfare.

    Prior to open revolution, the founders scurried about from one secret meeting to the next, secret communiques, false fronts, espionage and treason, hiding behind pen names like "Constance Dogood" while writing seditious pamphlets...

    I think you'd better take a closer, more honest look at our history. And I support what they did... because it's not cowardice if you know up front that YOU CAN'T WIN PLAYING THEIR GAME... it's very smart. And that's the same reason I support Snowden.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Liberty indeed requires responsibility. We are responsible for the government. We are the sovereigns, and we must be diligent in watching the government and reporting its actions to the people so that we may best control it. And it is for that reason that Snowden upheld his duty and did what was right and what is necessary. Snowden is a hero.
    One of my favorite heroes, a TRUE hero of libertarian principles, is Martin Luther King. When he violated the law out of principle he didn't flee to the USSR to escape punishment, he went to jail. The law was unjust but he respected the institution of government and worked from with into change it, like a man of principle.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Razor View Post
    They didn't have to, THEY WERE ALREADY IN ANOTHER COUNTRY!


    No, they weren't. They were in a colony belonging to England. They wished to better their lives and the lives of those who lived there, so they stood up for what they believed and fought for what they believe. They didn't proclaim to believe it and then run from it.
    The hypothetical you're looking for, or the accurate one anyway, was if the founders assembled in LONDON, signed the DOI, delivered to the press... then high tailed it back to america.
    That makes absolutely no sense. We're talking about reality, not hypotheticals.

    It's really simple. The founding fathers did not run to Mexico. They stood right where they were and fought the fight they knew needed to be fought. They didn't start a war with England and then run from England. Snowden, on the other hand, ran away from the country he claimed he was doing it for. That's not courageous.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    Let me ask you this: As a Christian, do you feel it is appropriate to lie if the circumstance warranted it? I agree that, in general, oathbreaking is wrong. The same thing with killing. And yet, I have met few Christians who believe that killing in self defense is wrong.
    Kant asked this question once, and I don't necessarily agree with his strict interpretation that a lie cannot be appropriate in certain extreme circumstances. But a broken oath is not a lie, an oath is a sacred obligation. I cannot imagine a situation so extreme where perjury, a lie under oath, would be acceptable.

    In any case, this is not so extreme. No human life is at stake, this is about a nosy government being nosy. Big surprise! Nobody cared when the duly elected legislature wrote the Patriot Act that made this possible. If Snowden didn't like it he should have kept his oath and worked to effect change in other, constructive and moral ways.

    But even if there is so extreme a circumstance that requires oath breaking, then the morally correct course afterwards is to accept the punishment.

    Thank you. Kinda difficult to enjoy it with the crazy humidity today.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    The government was obtaining information from billions of calls. Were they obtaining billions of warrants?
    I think they were obtaining individual warrants to searh millions of calls at a time.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    You can assume anything you want. When you want an actual discussion, try reading what I wrote and actually formulating a response based on it instead of running away.
    I don't really care what you have to say on this.

    I only care what you can prove using link(s) to facts/data from unbiased sources.

    Which is, so far as I have seen, nothing.

    So noted.


    Have a nice day.

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