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Thread: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

  1. #191
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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    No offense...but what a load of patriotic-sounding crap.

    Forcing private companies to secretly hand over personal calling records of millions of Americans is NOTHING to do with national security.

    It has everything to do with government's taking advantage of terrorism paranoia to expand their powers...period.


    Can you prove to me using ONLY unbiased sources of FACTS (not oponions) that not doing the above makes American national security noticeably less secure?

    Yes or no, please?
    yes indeed. Multiple attacks have been stopped using FISA data.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    I just want to kinda post some thoughts on this, and point out what I think are mistakes some people are making.

    The thing people need to realize is that there are two entirely separate issues going on here. The first is Snowden stealing classified information and releasing some of it. The second is the PRISM and MAINWAY programs. They need to be looked at separately because the issues in each is separate. It is entirely possible to oppose the programs, while also opposing the release of the classified material about those programs.

    The government is selected by the people of the United States. We pick those people to exercise their best judgements. That is our form of government in a nutshell. The three branches have the "checks and balances", and the people have the right to vote the bastards out and replace them with other bastards. We pick the people who make up our government, or the people who pick the people. The government works for us and is responsible to us. Government of the people, if slightly indirect. The primary job of the government is the security and well-being of the country, of the people. Sometimes that well-being requires the government to do things which cannot be public knowledge. As a very simple example, we classify exact details of the capabilities of weapon systems, for obvious and well founded reasons. We set up a set of rules about what can and cannot be classified, when classified information can be declassified, who can access classified information, penalties for revealing classified information, and other aspects too numerous to list. We have to trust in those rules, and work to improve them where we find areas of fault. We cannot, under any circumstances, let Joe Blow contractor or E-1 make a decision about whether material should be classifies. That would lead to chaos and a complete inability to have any classified information. That is why we have very strict and somewhat harsh penalties for releasing classified information.

    And here is the important, key thing. Even if we like that the information released is now available, that does not mean that revealing it is any less a crime, and any more an act hostile to our government, and by extension hostile to we the people. Security must be secure. Just because you may disagree with PRISM and MAINWAY does not change the fact that security must be secure, for the good of the country. I am not going to guess at Snowden's motives. No one here knows what they are. They are irrelevant. People cannot be allowed to simply release classified information for any political reason.

    And then there are the programs themselves. I am not a legal expert. I doubt any legal expert has all the information at this time to even make a call on the constitutionality of the programs. Neither is clearly and absolutely unconstitutional or illegal(though some people will try and claim otherwise). So until a court rules, the government does have a responsibility to actually use the programs available to reduce the threat to our country and the people in it. The thing that most stands out in this is that there is to the best of my knowledge, little to no oversite on legality and constitutionality of classified programs. That to my mind has to change.
    Your imperative is security. When it comes down to choosing between security and liberty on this matter, you would have us remain in the dark about the programs and thereby you are choosing security over liberty. I understand that you might be opposed to certain programs, now that you know about them, and that you believe we have some arcane legislative recourse in these matters, but ultimately you would have chosen to remain in the dark about the programs and been ignorant of any need toward activism. That is ultimately choosing security over liberty. Those of us in a differing position are choosing liberty over security. We are saying that, no, security must not be secure when it must be sacrificed for liberty.

    There is a fantasy that both parties have been foisting upon us, and it is that we don't ever have to choose between those two things, that we can have something for nothing. These secret programs in violation of our rights are the result.

    Liberty comes at a premium, in more ways than one. Americans need to face that fact, and make the right choice, even when our leaders don't have the balls to tell us the truth.
    You can never be safe from a government that can keep you completely safe from each other and the world. You must choose.

  3. #193
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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    You obviously do have a problem with his action of making the public aware, because you believe he should be prosecuted.
    One does not go with the other. I believe in the law and justice system, and not arbitrary enforcement of it. I believe if I were to punch out a man hitting a child, I should stand trial. At the trial, I would make my case for acquittal. That's what I want for Snowden.

    If all you're going to do is hurl insults at me like that traitor remark, I don't see how we could have a respectful debate, so goodbye.
    It sucks when people misrepresent your position and make wild accusations, doesn't it? Remember that the next time you lie about what I'm saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    There is a difference between acting as a coward and valuing one's freedom over the opinions of some strangers.
    There is a difference in standing up for what you believe and tattling as you run away. I'll come back to Rosa Parks for the difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Razor View Post
    If he were detained he would lose free access to the press and ability to defend himself in the press and court of public opinion.
    Nonsense.

    If your aim is to stop teh gov't abuses
    ...you run away to another country? THAT'S how you fight government abuses? That's ridiculous.

    There is nothing heroic or courageous about walking out into a hail of bullets, either figuratively or literally.
    I've already responded to this statement a multitude of times in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    He did own up to his actions by publically exposing himself, giving as reason so the government doesn't wrongly target others.
    Which was 100% the right thing to do. Running away from having to stand trial for his actions was not.

    So by "own up" you mean everyone who does something illegal should voluntarily confess and submit themselves to the government.
    It amazes me how difficult this concept is for you people to comprehend. Go back and read one of my many other posts which shows this statement to be ridiculous.

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Prove he is lying.
    My previous posts on the subject already did. Prove you can stop trolling at least for one week.

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Then you must respect Snowden.


    'own up verb

    Definition of OWN UP

    intransitive verb
    : to admit or confess frankly and fully'


    Own up - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary


    He did EXACTLY that...by definition.

    He confessed fully and frankly about his actions on this.


    So, do you now respect him as you said you would?

    Yes or no, please?
    I've already answered your post many times in this thread before you even made this post. Try reading.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crossroads View Post
    That seems to be unrelated. How does his own opinion on the government conducting illegal or maybe even immoral searches THEN also HAVE to mean that he must face that same government in its own courts of law?
    Because he released classified information in the name of patriotism and then ran before he allowed America to work. He clearly does not believe in patriotism, he only believes in the parts which are convenient for him.

    You say running is cowardly
    It is.

    but is it only cowardly because what he revealed wasn't that terrible of a crime (by government standards) AND that the punishment he would face would probably not result in torture and death? What if you up it a bit? What if the government had done something TRULY terrible, something violent and bloody and horrible (which it has done in the past, but putting that aside...) AND the punishment he would receive would be essentially a painful death?
    You're wishing to deal in hypotheticals, and I'm dealing with facts. I cannot answer your question without facts.

  4. #194
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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post


    What are you talking about?
    Talking:

    1. To articulate (words):

    2. To give expression to in words:

    3. To speak of or discuss (something):
    talking - definition of talking by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

    Unless you can prove he was mouthing the words as he typed, he didn't "talk" about anything. You apparently consider definitions of words important, so shame on you for so egregiously botching this one.

    Have a more accurate day.

  5. #195
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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    Your imperative is security. When it comes down to choosing between security and liberty on this matter, you would have us remain in the dark about the programs and thereby you are choosing security over liberty. I understand that you might be opposed to certain programs, now that you know about them, and that you believe we have some arcane legislative recourse in these matters, but ultimately you would have chosen to remain in the dark about the programs and been ignorant of any need toward activism. That is ultimately choosing security over liberty. Those of us in a differing position are choosing liberty over security. We are saying that, no, security must not be secure when it must be sacrificed for liberty.

    There is a fantasy that both parties have been foisting upon us, and it is that we don't ever have to choose between those two things, that we can have something for nothing. These secret programs in violation of our rights are the result.

    Liberty comes at a premium, in more ways than one. Americans need to face that fact, and make the right choice, even when our leaders don't have the balls to tell us the truth.
    Security = the security of classified information(secure information), not the security of the nation. I think you misunderstood what I meant.

    Whether the programs are good or consitutional or legal or not does not change the fact that secure information must remain secure. Joe Schmucatelli does not get to decide what should be secure and what not. That decision is above his paygrade, and for good reason.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

  6. #196
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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Where did this ridiculous concept of maniless come up? You have some very weird ideas. A woman is equally capable of standing on principle.

    If you are trying to stand up to a (supposedly) corrupt government and uphold the Constitution, you don't do it by defecting to Venezuela. That is unprincipled, hypocritical, and an act of traitorous espionage.

    If you are a man or woman of principle, and you want to leak classified information supposedly to uphold the Constitution, then you must do so in an open way, and subject yourself to the authority of the government you are supposedly supporting the interests of.

    It's hard to communicate about these sorts of ideas with nihilists, because there is no common ground. This is a question of morality and honorable conduct, which is person a foreign concept to some people.
    Want to explain to me how he is defecting to Venezuela? He is not defecting anywhere. Defection is defined as "conscious abandonment of allegiance or duty (as to a person, cause, or doctrine)." It is typically used when a person flees over to another country in order to aid them. He is doing none of that whatsoever.

    "If you are a man or woman of principle, and you want to leak classified information supposedly to uphold the Constitution, then you must do so in an open way, and subject yourself to the authority of the government you are supposedly supporting the interests of."

    So I assume you respect Bradley Manning?
    "And in the end, we were all just humans, drunk on the idea that love, only love, could heal our brokenness."

  7. #197
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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    So far Snowden fall is the treason light category/whistle blower that went somewhat too far. If he goes to Bolivia he will still be in the same category but if he goes to Venezuela he is solidly falling into the treason category for siding with an enemy of the USA (same goes for Cuba, North Korea, Iran, Syria, etc.).
    No, Snowden is not a traitor.

    No, Edward Snowden probably didn’t commit treason

    Carlton Larson, a law professor at UC-Davis, explains that this sets up two avenues for treason prosecutions. One is the “aid and comfort” path, wherein somebody aiding a country waging war on the U.S. can be charged, and the other is the “levying war” path, wherein one is charged for actively waging war against the United States, or an individual state.
    He is not waging war against the US and unless the US would like to acknowledge an open state of war with Russia, China, and the like, then he did not commit treason.

    “Treason against the United States,” the Constitution says, “shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.” It adds: “No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.”
    What this adds up to is that a person has to do one of two things to be a traitor: either levy war or adhere to (form an attachment to, the Supreme Court once said) our enemies, giving them not only aid but also comfort.
    The two-witness rule has also made treason cases rare in American history.
    There were not two witnesses.

    Seth Lipsky: Revealing Secrets and Risking Treason - WSJ.com
    "And in the end, we were all just humans, drunk on the idea that love, only love, could heal our brokenness."

  8. #198
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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Hey, if you want to go to war against the United States and attempt to overthrow our system of government, feel free.
    Or in this case, a dude has to whistleblow on the government and run off so that he can continue to get his message out.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Invisible View Post
    Oh yes he did. He spied on Americans for no reason at all. That's treason by violation of the Constitution.

    Snowden needs to atone for what he did. He should reveal everything that he got from spying and then submit himself for punishment in some way.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Classified information being controlled has everything to do with national security. Your paranoid fantasies and assumptions will not change that basic fact.
    I'll take that as a 'no' to my question.

    Noted.


    Have a nice day.


    Have a nice

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