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Thread: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

  1. #171
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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Yeah, their logic doesn't make any sense at all. Apparently the "manly" thing to do is turn yourself in without a fight. Even our own military is taught SERE, survive, escape, resist and evade. Snowden is doing all 4. We should let our soldiers know about the change in policy.

    "If you've attacked the enemy, be sure to turn yourself in and suffer the horrible consequences of your actions when they torture and kill you. It's the manly thing to do!"



    It came from you and the others saying it's cowardly to not turn yourself in to the government that's trying to hurt you. It's completely irrational.

    If he'd have a fair, prompt and public trial, you MIGHT be right. But he won't. He'll be held in solitary for years like Manning, refused access to the press, and given a secret trial. There is absolutely zero benefit to his cause by turning himself in. He will disappear. Better to resist and evade, while still fighting.
    What 'principle' would they supposedly be espousing, I wonder, if they put themselves at the mercy of a government in which they don't believe? If he had done that, all these posturers would be saying "he just wanted to be a martyr", or some other criticism.

    I hope Snowden gets away, even if he has to stay in a country with an authoritarian government. I will just be happy he got away.
    You can never be safe from a government that can keep you completely safe from each other and the world. You must choose.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    What 'principle' would they supposedly be espousing, I wonder, if they put themselves at the mercy of a government in which they don't believe? If he had done that, all these posturers would be saying "he just wanted to be a martyr", or some other criticism.

    I hope Snowden gets away, even if he has to stay in a country with an authoritarian government. I will just be happy he got away.
    What's even funnier is people saying "He's a traitor because he's going to countries we don't like." He applied for an asylum in over 20 countries. Our allies all turned him down because they want to continue suckling on the power tit. Where the hell else is he supposed to go?

    A large number of Germans support him because of his revelation about the US spying on Germans, but they refused it anyway because they're cowards.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

  3. #173
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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    A large number of Germans support him because of his revelation about the US spying on Germans, but they refused it anyway because they're cowards.
    Or maybe because we have extradition treaties with Germany, legally obligating them to turn him over.
    I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    There's really no way to where he currently is or where he's going. Media reports can't be trusted given the (obvious) intent to keep his whereabouts a secret.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Glowpun View Post
    Who is James Clapper?
    Obama's personal fellatio assistant. The "clapper" surname refers to well, you know.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Surtr View Post
    Or maybe because we have extradition treaties with Germany, legally obligating them to turn him over.
    That doesn't apply if they grant him asylum, which they could have.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    That doesn't apply if they grant him asylum, which they could have.
    There are also many reasons why they wouldn't want a former member of the CIA to have asylum in their country after finding out that we're spying on them. I'm surprised that Merkel even wants to have a meeting with Obama after discovering that fun little tidbit of information.
    I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dezaad View Post
    You make great leaps of logic to come to "Snowden did it to be famous". On that matter, I will say nothing more.
    This is a logical conclusion based on the fact that Snowden's actions are contrary to his claimed motivations.

    The same with the notion that China and Russia have a bonanza.
    This is not a logical conclusion. It is pretty much what we call "fact".

    But on the matter of the morality of revealing a classified program to the American public, which is all that we actually DO know he did: The morality of the matter hinges on who is actually right about the program under question.
    No it does not. That can play into it (aforementioned atrocities), but the matter is not defined by it. Snowden's decision to place the American populace in greater danger when he was never authorized by them to make that decision on their behalf (in fact, when they trusted and paid him to do the opposite, as he swore an oath to them to do, an oath he betrayed) is a moral as well as a legal failure.

    If the program is indeed a violation of American rights, it ought to be revealed. If the program is actually not, then it should not be revealed.
    Snowden is not authorized to decide for the U.S. government was is and is not Constitutional. That is a power exercised by each of the three branches of government in turn, with final decision authority resting with the Judicial Branch. Snowden is no more allowed to decide that a program applying search algorithms to point-to-point data is unconstitutional (and it appears he couldn't care less whether or not a program is unconstitutional - much of what he has revealed does not fall under the program that is receiving all the attention here at home. It certainly is not unconstitutional for our intelligence agencies to be spying on the Chinese) and therefore expose it than I am authorized to decide that hiding the true identities of undercover agents are unconstitutional, and expose them.

    I take this stance because of the nature of what we are dealing with. If a secret program is indeed in violation of our rights, and the whole government is in support of it, then we have no practical manner to redress the violation.
    Indeed you do not. That is why it's called a "secret". Because it's "Secret". If we wish for the whole people to be able to judge the merits of secret programs, they cease to be secret and become (for intelligence purposes) nigh on useless. So vote wisely, national security depends on it.

    On the other hand, if a prospective Snowden is in error, and reveals something they oughtn't, then what they have done is illegal, probably harmful, and they ought to be hunted down, captured, and prosecuted. To me, intention to do good here would not matter as regards the law.
    Intention matters because it demonstrates premeditated intent to perform espionage. This is where the timeline comes into play - Snowden was in contact with the reporters before he ever started working with the NSA and would have come into contact with this program. He took much more than simply the PRISM program everyone talks about, and has exposed significantly more than simply PRISM. He took the job with Booz Allen to work for the NSA intending to steal classified materials, stuffed four laptops full of whatever he could get his hands on, and then scrammed.

    I am comfortable with this view, and its obvious flaws. The reason is that its flaws are far less egregious than the flaws inherent to your view. Your view would have us stuck with a violation of our rights without a foreseeable end. This is flatly unacceptable.
    On the contrary, we have the opportunity to replace 1/3 of our legislature every 2 years and our President every 4.

    Snowden was right, our President, Congress, and Courts are wrong. In this situation, we must each make our own decision, and then fight for what we believe is right, in accordance with that.
    Wrong. Were I a submarine commander, I would not have the right to decide that the threat from illegal immigration posed an existential threat to the US and launch nuclear missiles against American soil. Because only the government has the right to make life and death decisions on behalf of American citizens- because they gave the government that right, and they never extended it to me. I do not have the right to decide that undercover agents violate the protections against unlawful search and seizures, and out every undercover agent I can get the identity of. Because only the government has the right to make life and death decisions on behalf of American citizens - because they gave the government that right, and they never extended it to me. I do not have the right to make life or death decisions for other Americans without their consent, which is what you do when you release classified information. That's why it's classified in the first place - because it's exposure would represent varying levels of harm to the national security of the United States and the people who reside therein. Otherwise it wouldn't be "classified information", it would just be "information".

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Redress, I've asked you this before and you didn't answer: When a government agency carries out a highly contentious act that is arguably unconstitutional...and all in complete secrecy...what mechanisms are in place for citizens to challenge that act?
    None. Nor should their be. For all secret programs to be made available to the broad citizenry so that they can assess for themselves its' constitutionality and act accordingly would destroy our ability to conduct Intelligence and place Americans at incredible risk. We as citizens do not wield our own power of statecraft at the national level (and only rarely do at the State or Local level) - we instead elect our representatives, and split our government into three branches so that faction may check faction against the abuse of power.

    So. Vote Wisely. You are electing people who (surprisingly) might have a say no items of National Security.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Pfft, our Founders didn't work within the system. Sometimes the system is broken and you have no other choice than to work against it.
    Hey, if you want to go to war against the United States and attempt to overthrow our system of government, feel free.

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