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Thread: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    So far Snowden fall is the treason light category/whistle blower that went somewhat too far. If he goes to Bolivia he will still be in the same category but if he goes to Venezuela he is solidly falling into the treason category for siding with an enemy of the USA (same goes for Cuba, North Korea, Iran, Syria, etc.).
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    Perhaps you could enlighten me how volunteering to be locked in solitary confinement, without bed sheets and without a trial, for years, makes someone a man? I guess you think Manning is the manliest guy ever huh? I'm not sure where you got this ridiculous notion that only real men turn themselves in to the organization they're fighting, without a fight. A real man continues to resist.

    What possible good could come from him letting the government crush him in a secret trial years from now?



    How is it hyperbole if I'm quoting exactly what you said? You believe anyone who doesn't subject himself to years of solitary confinement without trial, and probably life imprisonment, is a coward. How is this any different than Manning? Both leaked something the American people needed to know, and that pissed a lot of politicians off. They'll nail him to the wall just like they're doing to Manning.

    Funny how we haven't heard one single interview from Manning. You act like Snowden would have access to the press. I don't think you're that naive, I think you just want to see him suffer. It has nothing to do with "being a man".

    I agree with you. The logic being used to want him to suffer, while gratuitously complimenting him, is deceptive on its face.

    Hopefully, none of the people writing such messages is or ever would be an attorney - always demanding their client "own up" to exactly what he/she did, confess to everything, and then try to defend yourself to the government when it is the government who is out to harm the client.

    I could link to videos of judges literally refusing to look at, respond to or even acknowledge complaints by people in court of wrongful actions against them by even court staff at the court.

    JUDGES ARE THE GOVERNMENT, THE STATE. Hollywood has sold the myth that judges are infinitely wise and infinitely fair neutral parties - when if fact judges are the government, paid by the government and the only real risk of lose of employment is also by the government. There are very, very few judges willing to go up against the NSA, DOD, DofHS, CIA and White House - unless no longer interested in being a judge - nor is there a chance in hell Snowden would be taken before a judge willing to do so.

    Actually, under the Homeland Security Act they would never have to give him so much as a hearing. In fact, he could literally be LEGALLY ordered secretly assassinated or secretly imprisoned for life without trial any under the latest additions.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    So far Snowden fall is the treason light category/whistle blower that went somewhat too far. If he goes to Bolivia he will still be in the same category but if he goes to Venezuela he is solidly falling into the treason category for siding with an enemy of the USA (same goes for Cuba, North Korea, Iran, Syria, etc.).
    Venezuela is an enemy of the U.S.? Since when?

    Don't get me wrong, I think Snowden should be tried, but I don't think Venezuela should be compared to North Korea as our enemy.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    You obviously do have a problem with his action of making the public aware, because you believe he should be prosecuted.

    If all you're going to do is hurl insults at me like that traitor remark, I don't see how we could have a respectful debate, so goodbye.




    1) It comes down to him putting the American people before the politicians. We deserve to know about this program. They can not just do whatever the hell they want.

    2) There's no good reason to keep this a secret. The value of this knowledge to the people is far more valuable than the "damage" of the enemy knowing of it.

    3) You and your family have an exponentially higher chance of dying in a head on collision on the way home from church than you have of being attacked by terrorists.

    4) So because they were already spying on us, that somehow changes things? Are you the type of person that when something's screwed up, you throw your hands up and say "It was already like that!"

    5-6) I definitely don't fault him for not using the proper channels (whether they existed or not), because I know nothing would have come from it. You like bringing up IG so much. Tell me about the last time an E-1 has called IG to challenge a presidential or congressional decision.

    7) I don't think it has anything to do with him wanting to be famous. People keep saying "He's just doing this for himself". Which makes no sense at all. Yes, he's completely ****ing himself over, ruining his own life, to benefit himself. He just might spend the rest of his life in a cage, which he's doing to benefit himself.

    8) I feel like Snowden could know it wouldn't work, just as I can tell you it wouldn't. I once called IG on my 1SG for trying to blackmail me into re-enlisting, and all they did was talk to him. I had to get a lawyer through JAG and fight for 6 months before I won. And that's just challenging someone a few spots over me. How serious do you think a battle between the president and congress vs a contractor would go?

    9) They would lock him in a cage and we'd never hear from him again, like they've done to manning. Even manning's trial is secret. That's not facing the music, or standing up for yourself, that's just suicide. It'd be like the founding fathers turning themselves into the British government to be tried so that they could state their case for American independence in court.
    Excellent point. For those "turn himself in" claimers, clearly they have utter contempt of this Country's founders for not "owning up to their actions" and turning themselves over to the British authorities - and then OMG becoming murderous insurgents.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    Venezuela is an enemy of the U.S.? Since when?

    Don't get me wrong, I think Snowden should be tried, but I don't think Venezuela should be compared to North Korea as our enemy.
    This is not how the US might see/is seeing it, but the Venezuelan government does see the US as an enemy and finding refuge you don't go to a country that thinks your own country is "the enemy".
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    This is not how the US might see/is seeing it, but the Venezuelan government does see the US as an enemy and finding refuge you don't go to a country that thinks your own country is "the enemy".
    If the U.S. looks at Venezuela as our enemy why do we get oil from them? Do we get oil from North Korea? No. Again, Venezuela is not the same as North Korea.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    This is not how the US might see/is seeing it, but the Venezuelan government does see the US as an enemy and finding refuge you don't go to a country that thinks your own country is "the enemy".
    The reason the see us as the enemy is not arbitrary. And they have never done anything to the US beyond rhetoric. We've supported or installed brutal dictators in most of the central and south American countries, sometimes assassinating their democratically elected leaders, and there is no question that American interests were behind Chavez's brief ouster in a coup.

    How dare they take control of their own resources. It's actually the perfect place for him to go.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    Not me. I hope he's brought back to the United States and put on trial. Running away and hiding is cowardly. If he feels this strongly about the wrongs the government was doing, then he should be willing to stand up and fight them.
    That seems to be unrelated. How does his own opinion on the government conducting illegal or maybe even immoral searches THEN also HAVE to mean that he must face that same government in its own courts of law?

    You say running is cowardly, but is it only cowardly because what he revealed wasn't that terrible of a crime (by government standards) AND that the punishment he would face would probably not result in torture and death? What if you up it a bit? What if the government had done something TRULY terrible, something violent and bloody and horrible (which it has done in the past, but putting that aside...) AND the punishment he would receive would be essentially a painful death? Would you still call him a coward? I think most people wouldn't even make that argument under those circumstances.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by TheNextEra View Post
    If the U.S. looks at Venezuela as our enemy why do we get oil from them? Do we get oil from North Korea? No. Again, Venezuela is not the same as North Korea.
    That is why I wrote in the previous answer: This is not how the US might see/is seeing it

    But Venezuela all but blamed the US for Chavez having cancer and trying to destabilize the Venezuelan government.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    Excellent point. For those "turn himself in" claimers, clearly they have utter contempt of this Country's founders for not "owning up to their actions" and turning themselves over to the British authorities - and then OMG becoming murderous insurgents.
    Quote Originally Posted by joko104 View Post
    I agree with you. The logic being used to want him to suffer, while gratuitously complimenting him, is deceptive on its face.

    Hopefully, none of the people writing such messages is or ever would be an attorney - always demanding their client "own up" to exactly what he/she did, confess to everything, and then try to defend yourself to the government when it is the government who is out to harm the client.

    I could link to videos of judges literally refusing to look at, respond to or even acknowledge complaints by people in court of wrongful actions against them by even court staff at the court.

    JUDGES ARE THE GOVERNMENT, THE STATE. Hollywood has sold the myth that judges are infinitely wise and infinitely fair neutral parties - when if fact judges are the government, paid by the government and the only real risk of lose of employment is also by the government. There are very, very few judges willing to go up against the NSA, DOD, DofHS, CIA and White House - unless no longer interested in being a judge - nor is there a chance in hell Snowden would be taken before a judge willing to do so.

    Actually, under the Homeland Security Act they would never have to give him so much as a hearing. In fact, he could literally be LEGALLY ordered secretly assassinated or secretly imprisoned for life without trial any under the latest additions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crossroads View Post
    That seems to be unrelated. How does his own opinion on the government conducting illegal or maybe even immoral searches THEN also HAVE to mean that he must face that same government in its own courts of law?

    You say running is cowardly, but is it only cowardly because what he revealed wasn't that terrible of a crime (by government standards) AND that the punishment he would face would probably not result in torture and death? What if you up it a bit? What if the government had done something TRULY terrible, something violent and bloody and horrible (which it has done in the past, but putting that aside...) AND the punishment he would receive would be essentially a painful death? Would you still call him a coward? I think most people wouldn't even make that argument under those circumstances.
    Yeah, their logic doesn't make any sense at all. Apparently the "manly" thing to do is turn yourself in without a fight. Even our own military is taught SERE, survive, escape, resist and evade. Snowden is doing all 4. We should let our soldiers know about the change in policy.

    "If you've attacked the enemy, be sure to turn yourself in and suffer the horrible consequences of your actions when they torture and kill you. It's the manly thing to do!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Where did this ridiculous concept of maniless come up? You have some very weird ideas. A woman is equally capable of standing on principle.

    If you are trying to stand up to a (supposedly) corrupt government and uphold the Constitution, you don't do it by defecting to Venezuela. That is unprincipled, hypocritical, and an act of traitorous espionage.

    If you are a man or woman of principle, and you want to leak classified information supposedly to uphold the Constitution, then you must do so in an open way, and subject yourself to the authority of the government you are supposedly supporting the interests of.

    It's hard to communicate about these sorts of ideas with nihilists, because there is no common ground. This is a question of morality and honorable conduct, which is person a foreign concept to some people.
    It came from you and the others saying it's cowardly to not turn yourself in to the government that's trying to hurt you. It's completely irrational.

    If he'd have a fair, prompt and public trial, you MIGHT be right. But he won't. He'll be held in solitary for years like Manning, refused access to the press, and given a secret trial. There is absolutely zero benefit to his cause by turning himself in. He will disappear. Better to resist and evade, while still fighting.
    Last edited by RabidAlpaca; 07-08-13 at 01:41 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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