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Thread: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    If I knowingly broke the law, I would put myself into the justice system for it. For example, if I saw a man abusing a child, I would beat him within an inch of his life...maybe a woman too. I would willingly stand trial for it. I would try to win, obviously, but I would not run away from what I felt was the right thing to do.

    You're completely changing your own example, mostly because you saw how foolish it was to offer it in the first place. It was your words, not mine.

    And he's a coward because he ran, rather than stand up for what he believes.

    Nor would it have happened. With the media surrounding his story, there's no way that could happen.

    No, he's running from them. Big difference.

    False. There's no way that would happen. In fact, Snowden has put himself in greater danger of that happening since he ran. Snowden could have walked into an attorney's office, maybe invite the media, gave his statement, and the government would not have been able to do anything to violate his rights. He was an American citizen on American soil who was not engaging in hostile action against the country. The US Government would have thrown everything into his trial, but he still would have had his day in court.
    Perhaps, but it still makes him a coward. *shrug*
    You do realize that Bradley Manning was held for years in solitary confinement, without a trial, and without access to the media, right? Apparently there's no way that something that's already happened could happen?

    Manning's trial is secret, and there have been no interviews with him of any kind. The media has had ZERO access to him.

    Apparently you are so hardcore that you'd rather give up and be a martyr instead of keeping up the fight. You've still refused how giving yourself up and being locked in a cage would somehow further his cause more than resisting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    There would be very few men who would ever get a trial more fair than Edward Snowden. The media circus/investigations would demand it.
    No, it would be declared a matter of national security and the media would be blocked out, just like they're doing with Manning.
    Last edited by RabidAlpaca; 07-06-13 at 02:08 PM.
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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    I believe what the US gov is doing with their spying is a far greater offense of the law and breach of American trust. Snowden revealed how we've been bugging our allies, which really reveals something about our hubris.
    but exactly how much information and government secrets does snowden possess. has he given away all knews or are there some government secrets he has not revealed yet and has stored on a personal hard drive. will he reveal it for free or will require payment for the information?

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    You do realize that Bradley Manning was held for years in solitary confinement, without a trial, and without access to the media, right?
    You do realize Bradley Manning was a member of the Army, was arrested in a foreign country and is being court martialed, right?

    Apparently there's no way that something that's already happened could happen?

    Manning's trial is secret, and there have been no interviews with him of any kind. The media has had ZERO access to him.
    I'm sorry, would Edward Snowden be court martialed? If not, your entire post here is irrelevant.

    Apparently you are so hardcore that you'd rather give up and be a martyr instead of keeping up the fight.
    But he's not fighting. He's running.

    You've still refused how giving yourself up and being locked in a cage would somehow further his cause more than resisting.
    Because everything about your statement is false. He wouldn't be locked in a cage and he's not resisting, he's running.

    But hey, I'll do the honest thing for you. How would be arrested and standing trial help his cause more than running? Well, he could stand up for what he believes in, it would likely inspire protests from other Americans to stand up for removal of this spying, it would keep the story in the news much longer, it would force politicians to have to take a stand on security vs. privacy (a stand which then would be in play during elections) and at the end of the day, if he could convince a jury of his peers, it would show that Americans do not support the massive spying into their lives.

    Happy now?

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    Please.

    Of course we spy on our allies. They spy on us too. Of course we hack China, they hack us too. This information was not earth-shattering, like so many people seem to think it was.
    I agree that our respective governments knew about the spying but probably not to what extent. And they certainly didn't want the public to know because they're authoritative power mongers. And if all this is so open, I don't see what protocols Snowden breached, since it's common knowledge?

    I heard a former gov official once describe how governments of large nations deal with each other on the world stage as a secret chess match. Always watching, observing, copying and countering each other on every move and level imaginable from political, technological, economical to militarily and spying.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    But not everyone agrees with you...making blanket statements which relate to your own beliefs is a waste of time.

    Again, I don't like what they are doing either. Don't misunderstand, I FULLY support legislation to curtail that aspect of their power. But it doesn't change the fact that what they were doing was still legal.
    Obviously not everyone agrees with me. If you don't like how I state my beliefs, don't read my posts.

    Violating the 4th amendment isn't legal.

    I didn't know the name, but knew full well the USA was intercepting communications. Hell, politicians try to pass laws all the time requiring ISPs to retain data on their users for increasingly longer periods, to be used in legal investigations. Here's an article on the data center in Utah, from a full year ago, which pretty much told people what was going on:

    The NSA Is Building the Country's Biggest Spy Center (Watch What You Say) | Threat Level | Wired.com

    Snowden's information about that did not come as a surprise to me or anyone who has been paying attention.

    But I DID know the government routinely receives information from media companies, whether it's cell phone companies or Google or Facebook, etc.

    Again, only ignorant people did not know this was going on.

    Sure we did.

    USATODAY.com - NSA secret database report triggers fierce debate in Washington

    That's from 2006. You must be one of the ones who didn't know because you weren't paying attention.

    It was neither belief nor suspicion, it was just a fact.
    Please.

    Of course we spy on our allies. They spy on us too. Of course we hack China, they hack us too. This information was not earth-shattering, like so many people seem to think it was.
    I love when people say things like, "Snowden's information about that did not come as a surprise to me or anyone who has been paying attention." Again, you are not a special snowflake. The issue here isn't surprise. Nobody except for you has said anything about being surprised. The issue of "surprise" is the ultimate self-aggrandizing strawman.

    As for the rest of your post, knowing about other programs and believing that programs like PRISM and the Verizon program existed is, again, not the same thing as knowing that PRISM and the Verizon program existed. You didn't know. You knew of other programs and you believed that even more existed. You ought to be more accurate and precise with your language lest you continue to think you're a special snowflake when you are not.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by grip View Post
    I agree that our respective governments knew about the spying but probably not to what extent.
    Yes, they do. Only an ignorant fool would not think countries who possess the technology are not spying on each other to every extent possible, and the people who have the secrets which need to be guarded are not ignorant fools.

    And if all this is so open, I don't see what protocols Snowden breached, since it's common knowledge?
    Well, regardless of how well it was known, it was still considered classified information.

    I heard a former gov official once describe how governments of large nations deal with each other on the world stage as a secret chess match. Always watching, observing, copying and countering each other on every move and level imaginable from political, technological, economical to militarily and spying.
    Sounds like a great description.

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Unitedwestand13 View Post
    but exactly how much information and government secrets does snowden possess. has he given away all knews or are there some government secrets he has not revealed yet and has stored on a personal hard drive. will he reveal it for free or will require payment for the information?
    I don't believe in doing things to hurt the US but recording everyone's phone calls, emails, text messages and other forms of communications is simply too much information. It gives the government way too much ability to abuse their power thru secret courts and under the guise of national security.
    Einstein, "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    You do realize that Bradley Manning was held for years in solitary confinement, without a trial, and without access to the media, right? Apparently there's no way that something that's already happened could happen?

    Manning's trial is secret, and there have been no interviews with him of any kind. The media has had ZERO access to him.

    Apparently you are so hardcore that you'd rather give up and be a martyr instead of keeping up the fight. You've still refused how giving yourself up and being locked in a cage would somehow further his cause more than resisting.
    if snowden had been seeking asylum from the russians if he had revealed one of their top secret spying programs, we would probably expect to see a future story of him dying of poison.

    after all, going on past experience Russia no qualms of silencing dissidents hiding in a foreign country, as in the cases of georgi markov or Alexander Litvinenko.

    Georgi Markov - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Poisoning of Alexander Litvinenko - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    But he's not fighting. He's running.
    Really?

    Under which situation is he more able to continue to talk about what he knows, to any extent he wants...a) free; or b) in captivity?

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    re: Edward Snowden Asylum To Be Offered By Venezuela,President Nicolás Maduro Says[W:271]

    Quote Originally Posted by Slyfox696 View Post
    Agreed. But running away and hiding, rather than standing up to the fact what he did was still illegal, is also cowardly. Rosa Parks sat on a bus, knowing she'd be arrested. Did she run when the police got there? No, she stood up (or I guess in her case sat down) for what she believed in and she was willing to pay the price for doing what she thought was right. Rosa Parks was courageous. Edward Snowden is not.

    Obviously they do. Of course, the USA is not a tyrannical government, so your statement really doesn't matter, but even in the manner you made it, Snowden is a coward. He broke the law and ran.

    That would not happen to him. The public visibility of Edward Snowden would make that impossible.

    I was.

    Edward Snowden did a courageous act, but he is not courageous. He came out with his information because he claimed to be a patriot, a true American, and yet he ran from America instead of standing up to face its justice system. That's not courage and that's not patriotism. Snowden acted once in a courageous manner, and then fled in a cowardly manner.
    He is a coward and he's not standing up for his principles. He's tattling and running away.

    No, a person who breaks the law and runs from authorities is a coward. Snowden knew full well what he was doing. But rather than face the music, he ran.

    Our founding fathers didn't sign the Declaration of Independence and then hightail it to Mexico. They put their names on the document and then were willing to fight for what they believed in. Edward Snowden is nothing like our founding fathers.

    I don't hate what he did. I think what he did was rather irrelevant, because anyone who knows anything about technology has known this has been going on for years. All the "revelations" Snowden supposedly announced have been known for years.

    Privacy is a big issue. I am very much in favor of Internet privacy, and I do not approve of what the government has been doing. But with that said, at the same time, I also believe very strongly in standing up for convictions and Snowden did not. Snowden chose to run rather than stand up and fight for what he believes in.

    Agreed. I'm not saying the one act Snowden made was not a courageous one act. But one act does not define a man. If I'm afraid of heights and go up on a ferris wheel one time before vowing to never do so again, does that mean I'm courageous? No, it means I had a moment of strength.

    Damn straight I would. And I would look my government in the eye and sit in that court room and let my fellow Americans decide if I did the right thing or not.

    I never said that. You're putting words into my mouth which were never there.
    I agree that snowden is a coward, but not for the reasons you offer. He's a coward because in choosing to work for the NSA in the first place, he broke his own principles . And he did it for $$.

    Snowden should be punished for that--for helping to spy on innocents. The act of revealing the spying operation, however, was honorable, even thought everyone w/noodle already knew the NSA was a Constitution-violating organization.

    Snowden should stand trial for that in the US--for violating everyone's 4th Amendment right as an NSA contractor. However, that's not possible at this time.

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