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Thread: NOM’s July 4th message: Are you LGBT or are you American? [W:45]

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    re: NOM’s July 4th message: Are you LGBT or are you American? [W:45]

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    The statement that all morality is relative is in itself an absolute statement and self defeating.

    I think laws are created largely based on societal morals, but there exists an absolute moral code as given by God that governs all people whether they accept it or not. The fact of the matter is that everyone dies and gets judged by God according to His standards, not ours.
    In order to claim a moral code is divine in nature you have to first prove divinity. That has two parts that have yet to even come close to being proven. The first is to prove there is some sort of divine power and rules, and the second is to prove that a specific set of rules in accordance with a specific religion is the right one. A lot of people believing in something does not make it true or moral as history is littered with areas where many people have believed in false things, and in moral values that we find immoral today. I am assuming you tend towards the moral values specified in the bible. First, the bible doesn't even come close to being the word of god as it is clearly admitted to be the word of man that might have been inspired by god. We will also note that the bible does give clear advocation of practices we find immoral today. It does give moral rules for keeping slaves. keeping slaves is something we find completely immoral today, so the divinity and absolute correctness of the bible and christian religions would not be considered infallible as admitted by many christians themselves.

    Societal morals are in many cases wrong at times due to the fallibility of man. However, in the absence of regular communication from the divine to clear up misunderstandings the adaptability of societal morals over time becomes far superior to those of a divine nature. Man learned that slavery was wrong and man fought against the practice and freed the slaves in many areas of the world. God did not come down and perform miracles or command we stop using slaves, we did. Certain laws are easy to see through societal contract. laws against murder, theft, assault, and other laws protecting the sovereignity of life, physical safety, and of property make sense to religious and non-religious alike. None of us want to be assaulted, killed, or have our stuff taken so we agree that we will not do those things, and that the law will be present to punish those who do so and remove them from society for not abiding by such social contracts. I can even see the argument against abortion by the idealists who truly believe in the sanctity of life under those guidelines, though they often resort to a piss poor religious argument which has no basis in truth because they cannot prove god exists or that their religion is the religion of said overlord of the universe.

    Morality becomes subjective when you start dealing with laws that are not gotten through social contract. gay marriage is one of those. there has been no proof at all, and even proof to the contrary, that gay marriage is harmful to anyone but those who happen to willingly participate in it. Unlike something like assault your life is not directly effected by gay marriage. Yet it is claimed as being something moral based upon divinity which has no basis in truth. That is a moral value relative to the person making it. Those are moral choices a person makes on an individual basis as they are the only people harmed or benefitting from those choices.

    This is why morals are relative. We see that at different points in time and different places even society declares different values for laws. It was legal to own slaves. it is legal to assault some people, or to kill at times. Those positions are relative to the situation and environment you happen to be in. Even religious moral values are relative to the religion you practice or do not practice. It is moral for a muslim woman to wear a hijab, but a christian woman is not concerned with that morality or even finds it to be moral at all. Until your prove god, and you prove a specific god and set of rules your claims that morals are divinely sanctified are just spouting at best. if it is truly moral like no murder you can make an argument without the use of god or divine inspiration which you cannot prove. If you need to use god to prove your moral stance remove the relativity in your stance and prove god and what it wants to us.

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    re: NOM’s July 4th message: Are you LGBT or are you American? [W:45]

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Read more @: NOM’s July 4th message: Are you LGBT or are you American? | The Raw Story

    Ohhh silly hate groups.. [/FONT][/COLOR]They will be on the wrong side of history..
    Because gays totally endured the level of hardships as American blacks.
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    re: NOM’s July 4th message: Are you LGBT or are you American? [W:45]

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    What, then,did you mean, by saying that “Some things should not be tolerated”? Nothing was being discussed, other than opinions and beliefs and the expression thereof, so it makes no sense to claim that it was not an opinion, belief, or expression thereof that you intended to include among the things which “should not be tolerated”. And to not tolerate an opinion, belief, or expression thereof, what can that mean other than to call for the silencing of that expression? To allow a belief or opinion to be expressed, no matter how disagreeable it might be to you, is to tolerate it.
    Wrong. To allow an opinion to be expressed is not to tolerate it, tolerating it would be turning a blind eye to it, to accept it without criticism.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

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    re: NOM’s July 4th message: Are you LGBT or are you American? [W:45]

    Quote Originally Posted by Surtr View Post
    Because gays totally endured the level of hardships as American blacks.
    If "gay" was a visibly obvious characteristic, they absolutely would have.

    But you know what? Irrelevant. That isn't the point of this image.

    I am so sick of these whiny ass social conservative types screeching about how we wont intolerate their intolerance. **** you, of course we aren't going to tolerate your intolerance. Digsbe? You're wrong. NOM absolutely positively has been working to deny rights to homosexuals. They actively participate in political lobbying to do exactly that.

    Look, nobody is saying gay people have endured the same hardships as black people. So quit bringing up that straw man. The comparisons to the civil rights movement aren't making that comparison. The comparison is that the anti-gay crowd is making the same types of arguments, holding up the same types of signs, and for what? Upholding "traditional marriage?" All this effort devoted to blocking other people from signing a legal contract, denying them the right to have the government recognize that contract. Don't give me this crap about just wanting to protect yourselves and your beliefs. It's bull****. None of you are affected in any way if two other dudes get married. But you want to stop it anyway, because you think it's icky.

    That makes you intolerant and I have no obligation to tolerate that.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    re: NOM’s July 4th message: Are you LGBT or are you American? [W:45]

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Blaylock View Post
    What, then,did you mean, by saying that “Some things should not be tolerated”? Nothing was being discussed, other than opinions and beliefs and the expression thereof, so it makes no sense to claim that it was not an opinion, belief, or expression thereof that you intended to include among the things which “should not be tolerated”. And to not tolerate an opinion, belief, or expression thereof, what can that mean other than to call for the silencing of that expression? To allow a belief or opinion to be expressed, no matter how disagreeable it might be to you, is to tolerate it.
    You have a right to say all these idiotic things you say. And I have a right to call you out for it.

    Nobody said anything about gagging you. You're buying into way too much of NOM's rhetoric.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    re: NOM’s July 4th message: Are you LGBT or are you American? [W:45]

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    I just think it's funny that they (those that fling the anti-SSM people are bigoted homophobes and equal to racists in the 60's) push a meme of "love, tolerance, and freedom" yet are intolerant of other views, have hatred for those that hold those views, are quick to judge and slander everyone that disagrees with a bigoted attitude, and deny them the freedom to vote and have their voice heard on issues. That's what happens when people grow so delusional and self righteous in their thinking. They need to believe that the other side is evil, that they themselves are morally superior, and degrade the position of others that disagree with them.

    And as previously clarified, this only applies to those that judge anti-SSM individuals and hurl around the insults, not everyone that supports SSM (as I myself do).
    What about the "tolerance" of those who vilify gays as being un-American?

    Look, I know plenty of people who are against SSM, and many of them are very nice people. I don't have anything against them though I disagree with them. However, if your organization pushes the idea that you can't be gay and American at the same time, that IS hateful rhetoric. If you don't want to be branded as "hateful" don't say hateful things.

    Ironically, the same people who rally to this divisive rhetoric go on and on about Obama being divisive. If you want to be divisive fine, but if you engage in that kind of rhetoric, you are at best the pot calling the kettle black when it comes to Obama's "divisiveness."


    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    This issue has been plowed more times than Paris Hilton.
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    Too bad we have to observe human rights.

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    re: NOM’s July 4th message: Are you LGBT or are you American? [W:45]

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    If "gay" was a visibly obvious characteristic, they absolutely would have.

    But you know what? Irrelevant. That isn't the point of this image.
    It's making a clear comparison, like they've done in the past. Instead of using obvious hyperbole, just stick with actual facts.

    I am so sick of these whiny ass social conservative types screeching about how we wont intolerate their intolerance. **** you, of course we aren't going to tolerate your intolerance. Digsbe? You're wrong. NOM absolutely positively has been working to deny rights to homosexuals. They actively participate in political lobbying to do exactly that.

    Look, nobody is saying gay people have endured the same hardships as black people. So quit bringing up that straw man. The comparisons to the civil rights movement aren't making that comparison. The comparison is that the anti-gay crowd is making the same types of arguments, holding up the same types of signs, and for what? Upholding "traditional marriage?" All this effort devoted to blocking other people from signing a legal contract, denying them the right to have the government recognize that contract. Don't give me this crap about just wanting to protect yourselves and your beliefs. It's bull****. None of you are affected in any way if two other dudes get married. But you want to stop it anyway, because you think it's icky.

    That makes you intolerant and I have no obligation to tolerate that.
    Take a deep breath. Count to ten. Relax. Nobody cares about your dramatic outrage for effect. Yelling and crying about it won't do you any good.
    I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

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    re: NOM’s July 4th message: Are you LGBT or are you American? [W:45]

    Quote Originally Posted by Surtr View Post
    It's making a clear comparison, like they've done in the past. Instead of using obvious hyperbole, just stick with actual facts.


    Take a deep breath. Count to ten. Relax. Nobody cares about your dramatic outrage for effect. Yelling and crying about it won't do you any good.
    Tone fallacy. Predictable. Often used when one has nothing to say against the actual argument being made. Similar to ad hominem in that regard.

    Bottom line: Gay people getting married does not negatively impact you or society in any measurable way. But some people want to ban it anyway, because they think it's wrong. This is not at all in line with the fundamental principles this country is built on.

    No, NOM, you are the ones fighting against real American values.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    re: NOM’s July 4th message: Are you LGBT or are you American? [W:45]

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Tone fallacy.
    That only works when you present something of value.

    Predictable. Often used when one has nothing to say against the actual argument being made. Similar to ad hominem in that regard.
    Which is exactly what you're doing right now. I'm for same sex marriage. I'm against stupid twats using arguments that damage their own cause. Yelling and crying, and telling people "**** you" does absolutely nothing to progress this cause.

    No, NOM, you are the ones fighting against real American values.
    Are you done?
    I love the NSA. It's like having a secret fan-base you will never see, but they're there, watching everything you write and it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside knowing that I may be some person's only form of unconstitutional entertainment one night.

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    re: NOM’s July 4th message: Are you LGBT or are you American? [W:45]

    Quote Originally Posted by Surtr View Post
    That only works when you present something of value.
    Because NOM here has presented something of value to counter? They'll deserve reasonable debate when they try it themselves.


    Which is exactly what you're doing right now. I'm for same sex marriage. I'm against stupid twats using arguments that damage their own cause. Yelling and crying, and telling people "**** you" does absolutely nothing to progress this cause.
    What did you just call me?


    Are you done?
    Tone fallacy again.
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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