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Thread: Republicans pull a fast one on voters

  1. #21
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    Re: Republicans pull a fast one on voters

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    Not at all. My criteria would allow the pre-existing system to exist because that system was based on the actual demand. It allowed specialized "companies" to exist for consumers who want a specialized product. The change to the system eliminates the competition from specialized "companies" so that the crappy duopoly can remain intact.

    For a third party to gain strength, there must be the opportunity to create competition. By eliminating their ability to create that competition, the ****ty duopoly remains.

    The old method used the total party membership to determine ballot access. This new system seeks to prevent smaller parties from getting their foot in teh door in order to gain more membership. That's as antithetical to free-market beliefs as it can get.



    You have the free market example mixed up. The companies are not in charge of the number of choices for a product, the market is. Multiple companies, allowed to exist, provide the unlimited number of choices. when laws are passed which limit the number of companies possible, allowing a monopoly or a duopoly to be present, the number of choices for the consumer becomes extremely limited, and neither company is expected or required to put out a good product to maintain profits.

    The two-party system, and the adherence to it form both parties, proves that neither party has any real interest in a free market. They know their product is ****. They cannot stand up in the face real competition, so the system is tweaked constantly to prevent any such competition from rising up. First-past-the post elections, gerrymandering, absorption of any real threats into the fold by paying lip-service to the ideals presented by the grassroots movement ultimately ****ting all over them for political expediency (see tea party).
    Even if I accept your argument, you conveniently left out the most important part - if any restriction on access to the ballot is arbitrary and unjust, what's to limit any individual from declaring themselves to be a "third" party and demand access to any ballot in any race? You say you want it to go back to the way it was - isn't that arbitrary? Based on party membership - if my party has one member, aren't you arbitrarily judging that not to be enough? How do you know, if my name was on the ballot as the candidate for the CanadaJohn party, I might drum up some votes even protest votes and gain some party memberships from being on the ballot?
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

  2. #22
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    Re: Republicans pull a fast one on voters

    Quote Originally Posted by ModerateGOP View Post
    So according to you, "voters" equal people who vote in third parties? Seems like your pulling a fast one on the rest of us.
    Are you saying people who vote for third-party candidates aren't voters?
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  3. #23
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    Re: Republicans pull a fast one on voters

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    The problem is that it isn't consistent across the board. It has a far greater direct affect on smaller parties that are not well established. It's be like passing a tax law that required all businesses to pay a flat, $1 million dollar business tax. It'd be nothing for walmart, but any mom and pop store would be put right the hell out of business.
    So you think requiring a party to be supported by one sixth of one percent - 5,300 voters, out of a population of 6.5 million people - is too onerous a test to get on a statewide ballot? Gee, if you really tried, I'll bet you could get 5,300 signatures to get Taylor Swift's non-existent singing talent on a ballot with those minimums.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Republicans pull a fast one on voters

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    As I understand it, this doesn't prohibit any voter from exercising his or her right to vote for whomever they choose - they can write in Mickey Mouse if they like.

    According to your criteria, there should be no limit on the number of candidates who can be listed on a ballot because any means of paring down the choices would be arbitrary and thus inappropriate. Why should there be arbitrary limits to the number of Republican candidates or Democrat candidates who get on a ballot? Just because my fav in the primary loses, why can't I see his or her name on the ballot anyway so I can vote for them? If I start up the CanadaJohn party tomorrow, should I have the right to have my candidate's name listed on all ballots because to say no is to arbitrarily pick a reason not to?

    As for the free market example, there are not too many companies still profitable who are marketing unlimited choices to their customers when only a small few of the choices actually sell at sufficient numbers to generate a profit. Just because one person may buy garlic banana icecream doesn't mean Ben and Jerry are going to market and sell it.
    First off, I'm gonna side with George Washington on this one.

    His predictions as to what would happen to this country if we allowed a two party system to take root put Nostradamus to shame.

    What would be the downside to your example?

    How is too many choices a bad thing?

    We need inclusion of at least one additional party per ballot, public financing of elections (since politicians only work for those who pay for their campaigns, it might as well be us.), and a proportional voting system instead of first past the post.

    The problems Washington accurately predicted are real and significant. We ignore them at our peril.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
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  5. #25
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    Re: Republicans pull a fast one on voters

    Quote Originally Posted by windowdressing View Post
    whether they r on the ballot or not they can help swing the election. Paton lost because the majority did not want her ... the dem won because more people wanted her than wanted Paton. having more parties is a good thing. how many does Canada have?
    Canada has a multi-party parliamentary system both federally and provincially and we allow lots of choices, many that just take up space and make ballots more expensive to create and count. More choice is not always better choices and frequently is just the opposite.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Republicans pull a fast one on voters

    Quote Originally Posted by What if...? View Post
    First off, I'm gonna side with George Washington on this one.

    His predictions as to what would happen to this country if we allowed a two party system to take root put Nostradamus to shame.

    What would be the downside to your example?

    How is too many choices a bad thing?

    We need inclusion of at least one additional party per ballot, public financing of elections (since politicians only work for those who pay for their campaigns, it might as well be us.), and a proportional voting system instead of first past the post.

    The problems Washington accurately predicted are real and significant. We ignore them at our peril.
    I don't disagree with anything you've posted - my comments don't preclude what you suggest - I only indicate that I see nothing wrong with some form of verifying that a candidate is actually a viable choice and not just on the ballot as filler with ZERO chance of actually succeeding.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

  7. #27
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    Re: Republicans pull a fast one on voters

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    ... if any restriction on access to the ballot is arbitrary and unjust...
    That's not my premise, so that's why I left it out.
    Tucker Case - Tard magnet.

  8. #28
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    Re: Republicans pull a fast one on voters

    Quote Originally Posted by Tucker Case View Post
    That's not my premise, so that's why I left it out.
    So you believe the previous arbitrary requirements are less arbitrary than the new arbitrary requirements, is that it?
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

  9. #29
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    Re: Republicans pull a fast one on voters

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Even if I accept your argument, you conveniently left out the most important part - if any restriction on access to the ballot is arbitrary and unjust, what's to limit any individual from declaring themselves to be a "third" party and demand access to any ballot in any race? You say you want it to go back to the way it was - isn't that arbitrary? Based on party membership - if my party has one member, aren't you arbitrarily judging that not to be enough? How do you know, if my name was on the ballot as the candidate for the CanadaJohn party, I might drum up some votes even protest votes and gain some party memberships from being on the ballot?
    Still.don't see the problem.

    Except for the two parties currently in power.

    Ink on paper is cheap.

    Entries on digital systems even more so.

    Let everybody play.
    Anyone wondering what I'm talking about start here:
    The Psychology of Persuasion

  10. #30
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    Re: Republicans pull a fast one on voters

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I don't doubt what you say - my only point is that if it's a consistent rule across the board then there's nothing prejudicial about it - if it's not consistent, then it's just like the IRS.

    Here in Canada we have lots of third, fourth, fifth parties etc. Ballots are full of names nobody's ever heard of and often they get under 100 votes in races where the winner gets 50,000 - there was a time when they didn't even include the party affiliation of the various candidates on the ballot and the totally ignorant would just go in a play candidate roulette and pick a name.

    Based on the last Presidential election in the US, I'd be leary about trusting the general American electorate to be even marginally educated before they enter the polling booth.
    And I would have said those crafting the elections COUNT on the American electorate being informed by attack ads than a true discussion of the issues. Just because you think the guy you liked should have won is no reason to besmirch the average voter, after all after 4 dismal years of BushII he was returned to office...

    We have a saying in Oklahoma...if it ain't broke don't fix it. Has the garlic and banana ice cream party gotten on the AZ ballot? the current number of signatures seems to weed out the UFO Alliance Party, what is the 'problem' Jan sees with the system that she wants the signature number raised so drastically?

    Does the Canadian system ruin elections? I mean if a few get 100 votes but the winner gets 5000 what is the issue? No Sir, that is not the issue. What Jan worries about is being Perot'd. An open rebellion of the Tea Party, which is well represented in AZ would split the 'conservative' vote and allow an opportunity for the dems to sweep into office, to include HER job!

    She is attempting to cling to power with the aid of the mainstream GOP by changing the system that has worked quite well keeping Ben and Jerry odd ball flavor lovers off the ballot.

    I predict those who will vilify her don't love garlic banana ice cream, but feel she is justanother power hungry over reaching gubmint official who needs to go dyed in the wool Tea Bagger and that won't do her well in AZ's hot political climate.

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