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In 84-15 vote, Senate moves forward on immigration reform

Can you imagine what insulting, xenophobic and uniformed claims the House Tea Partiers are going to make in the debate on this bill?

It's going to show the GOP in all its paranoid anti-immigrant frenzy. Another nail in the conservative coffin.
 
head of joaquin said:
And bye bye GOP for the next three election cycles. This is good news.
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Not really. How much less of the Hispanic vote do you think the GOP is going to get if they don't pass it? It's not likely to get much if any worse than the 27% they got last year against a moderately popular incumbent. If we had a year like 2004, but keeping the Hispanic vote at 2012 levels, it becomes a neck and neck election for the next 3 cycles. And they already proved in 2010 they can still win the midterm cycles. I don't think this is likely to hurt them much in the short term. The problems the GOP could have is if they keep winning just 27% of the Hispanic vote 15-25 years from now.

Check it out. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/04/30/us/politics/presidential-math-demographics-and-immigration-reform.html?_r=2&
 
Anagram said:
Not really. How much less of the Hispanic vote do you think the GOP is going to get if they don't pass it? ]
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Enough to shift the outcome in close races.

But it's not just the Hispanic vote. The ugly rhetoric I expect to hear from the House tea partiers will also turn off even more moderates. Americans don't like bullies and bigots. And the GOP is full of them. They will take center stage in this debate.
 
head of joaquin said:
Enough to shift the outcome in close races.
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The GOP needs to keep in mind that in a decade or two, Texas will become a swing state.

If they don't work to get Hispanic votes they will lose Texas and lose the White House Ad Infinitum.
 
ReformCollege said:
E-verify and this problem would go away in two seconds.
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Do you really believe employers are unaware the guys they're hiring off street corners are here illegally?

The United States needs to do away with jus soli citizenship and we need to start requiring ID for everything including registering for school.
 
head of joaquin said:
Enough to shift the outcome in close races.
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Maybe. Maybe not. In a political climate like 2004 even with Hispanics voting 72% for Democrats like last year Republicans would still win Virginia by about a point for instance. It's better to have the votes go to you rather than against you obviously, but it doesn't guarantee an automatic win.
 
Kanstantine said:
The GOP needs to keep in mind that in a decade or two, Texas will become a swing state.

If they don't work to get Hispanic votes they will lose Texas and lose the White House Ad Infinitum.
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They can't turn off the rightwing noise machine. It has to get shriller and more extreme day by day to keep the tea party base excited. So there's no turning back from the brink for the GOP. It will soon be a marginal if not regional party. And this bill will hasten that.

Rove, that turd blossom, realizes that. He is so repentant that he included the tea party/Christian Right demographic into the GOP to win a few election. Now, like a Golem, it's turned on its maker and is destroying the GOP. Rove spends most of his time now attacking Palin, Bachmann and the rest of the tea party weirdos who arose due to his Faustian bargain.

It's going to be fun to watch the GOP implode.
 
Anagram said:
Maybe. Maybe not. In a political climate like 2004 even with Hispanics voting 72% for Democrats like last year Republicans would still win Virginia by about a point for instance. It's better to have the votes go to you rather than against you obviously, but it doesn't guarantee an automatic win.
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Secondarily, this bill will result in moderate republicans becoming more isolated or even expelled from the party. The bill will bring out the worst elements of the tea party, and any reasonable republican who defends it will win their undying ire. They will be replaced by radical tea party types who can't win in the general election.

This is a fiasco for the GOP. It's beautiful to behold.
 
APACHERAT said:
The Senate only voted to allow the bill to be debated before it dies.

Did you hear Obama today lying to the American people again. Can't Obama go 24 hours without telling a lie ?

Obama said all illegal aliens (he didn't use the legal term illegal alien) that they would pay back taxes. It's a lie ! The bill says only those who were on the books who owed taxes. Not the ten or more million who weren't on the books. If you were in the country for ten or twenty years and getting paid in cash under the table, you don't owe a penny in back taxes.
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Yeah, and if you employed illegal aliens you you have no penalty either.
 
Dapper Andy said:
Do you really believe employers are unaware the guys they're hiring off street corners are here illegally?

The United States needs to do away with jus soli citizenship and we need to start requiring ID for everything including registering for school.
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Plausible deniability.......
 
Can we call this a bipartisan bill?
 
Hatuey said:
Can we call this a bipartisan bill?
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Yes, the moribund moderate half of the GOP supports it, and will soon by drowned out by the extremist tea party half for doing so. It's going to get ugly.
 
Dapper Andy said:
Do you really believe employers are unaware the guys they're hiring off street corners are here illegally?

The United States needs to do away with jus soli citizenship and we need to start requiring ID for everything including registering for school.
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This is my idea.

Require that in order to get any ID or driver's license you present a birth certificate, green card, or certificate of naturalization and social security card.After that require a state issued ID or driver's license in order to the following-

-enroll yourself into school
-enroll your kids into school
-apply for welfare,food stamps,section 8 housing and any other tax payer assistance for yourself and or your children
-get a business license,fishing/hunting permit,building permit, license to practice law, food handlers permit, gun license(in states that require a permit to buy a gun),concealed carry permit(in states that require a license to conceal carry) or any other tax payer funded service
-open a bank account, cash a check, use a credit/debit/pre-paid card, apply for a loan,or wire money.
-rent,borrow,lease or buy property
-rent,borrow,lease or buy a motor vehicle.
-get legal documents for yourself or your children.
-get utilities
​
 
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Dapper Andy said:
Deniability for what?

It's not like anyone is really enforcing these laws.
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That's another issue entirely. We need to be, but politics gets in the way of that.
 
nota bene said:
Good catch.

Here's a different list: California, Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas.

Mexico
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California has banned the use of E-verify, and Texas and New Mexico don't have any laws on the books regulating it.
 
My point was (if you're a supporter of E-verify, anyway) is that the states that most need it don't have it.
 
liblady said:
Yeah, and if you employed illegal aliens you you have no penalty either.
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It's been a crime to employ illegal aliens for some time now and the Clinton, Bush and Obama administration just didn't refuse to enforce our immigration laws but refused to prosecute those who hired illegal aliens.

In 1986 the American people were told that if we reward illegal aliens amnesty, that it would never be repeated. That our borders would be secured and all of our nations immigration laws would be enforced in the interior. We were lied too.

Since then, Congress has snuck through six more amnesties with the same promises. Again we were lied too.

I don't know about you, but I've been lied too seven times.

This current bill is 800 pages long with no securing of the borders and no enforcement of the laws. It just 800 pages explaining that 20 million criminals will be legalized and given citizenship as an award for breaking our laws.

JUST ANOTHER LIE !
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Yea good luck "securing" a 1,969 mile border...
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We're the greatest country that has ever existed. A less than 2,000 mile border should not be a problem to contain if we seriously put our minds to it. Since we're just as concerned about security as Israel is, we could take a few pointers and pages out of their playbook on border security - treat trespassers in our country as enemies of the state, for example. If Israel is allowed to do it to Palestinians and other people trying to cross into areas they're not authorized to step foot in, and is backed by the U.S., then why can't we do the same to safeguard our homeland? I mean, it is the only place we've got. We should do everything under the sun to protect it, right?
 
ReformCollege said:
California has banned the use of E-verify, and Texas and New Mexico don't have any laws on the books regulating it.
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The federal government should require e-verify. But of course the whole states' rights argument has poisoned that well. Not to mention the fact that conservatives don't really want it, since it will result in possible criminal prosecutions of CEOs in some of the biggest industries, including agribusiness, hospitality and meat packing. Conservatives and their constituents make big money off exploiting illegal workers and have done so for a long time. With e-verify, those industries would actually have to pay market wages.
 
head of joaquin said:
Yes, the moribund moderate half of the GOP supports it, and will soon by drowned out by the extremist tea party half for doing so. It's going to get ugly.
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Watching anything die is ugly, especially watching a bill in Congress die.

America has been lied to seven times that if illegal aliens were awarded amnesty our borders would be secured and our immigration laws would be enforced.

No more amnesties means no more lies to the American people.

What hasn't been tried, enforcing the immigration laws that are already on the books. I'm willing to bet if we did enforce the laws we wouldn't have a problem.
 
Jango said:
We're the greatest country that has ever existed. A less than 2,000 mile border should not be a problem to contain if we seriously put our minds to it. Since we're just as concerned about security as Israel is, we could take a few pointers and pages out of their playbook on border security - treat trespassers in our country as enemies of the state, for example. If Israel is allowed to do it to Palestinians and other people trying to cross into areas they're not authorized to step foot in, and is backed by the U.S., then why can't we do the same to safeguard our homeland? I mean, it is the only place we've got. We should do everything under the sun to protect it, right?
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It's complicated, especially in border towns, where folks have relatives on either side.
 
APACHERAT said:
Watching anything die is ugly, especially watching a bill in Congress die.

America has been lied to seven times that if illegal aliens were awarded amnesty our borders would be secured and our immigration laws would be enforced.

No more amnesties means no more lies to the American people.

What hasn't been tried, enforcing the immigration laws that are already on the books. I'm willing to bet if we did enforce the laws we wouldn't have a problem.
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Actually I agree, it's deceptively simple: immigrants come here to work. Big industries (like hospitality, agribusiness, meat packing, and manufacturing) hire them. Enforce criminal laws against that, by throwing some CEOs into jail for hiring illegals, and that will be the end of that. No jobs, and there is no reason for immigrants to come -- they simply can't get social services here.

But since this raises real issues about discrimination against Hispanic Americans, we have to have a powerful e-verify system which is as foolproof as possible In addition, since errors are inevitable, we have to have an expeditious appeal system -- if an e-verify check falsely claims a job applicant is not a US citizen, an immediate appeal should be available to correct the matter in 24 or less.

That costs money. Funny that.

By the way, this issue will fade in the future since Mexico now has a self-sustaining middle class. We'll never see again the time when millions of workers were fleeing Mexico to come to America. Mexico's economy is strong enough so that they don't have to, not in those numbers.
 
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nota bene said:
It's complicated, especially in border towns, where folks have relatives on either side.
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Yeah, I'm sure it is a endless source of frustration for some, but there are legitimate ways of becoming an American. I support those ways, and those ways only.

If a special holding area near the border needs to created, which would be under dual U.S.-Mexico supervision, I'd support that, but we cannot have this steady stream of illegals just coming and going, bringing who know's what with them at their leisure.
 
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