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Thread: Sickening Video Claims Lee Rigby Murder was a Hoax

  1. #11
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    Re: Sickening Video Claims Lee Rigby Murder was a Hoax

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Well, there are conspiracy theories, and there are Conspiracy Theories. Conspiracies are real things that people are legitimately guilty of and go to prison for. However, when something has entered the realm of Conspiracy (and what we're really talking about when someone is dismissed as a conspiracy theorist) someone has gone beyond the observable evidence to arrive at conclusions that cannot be supported.
    I didn't realize there was a difference between a conspiracy theory and a conspiracy theory. But in any event this is aligned with what I said. Some theories are less plausible than others.

    One immediate giveaway of the conspiracy theorist is how in any event almost everything is connected somehow. This is what makes debating the conspiracy theorist futile and exhausting for a lot of people: no matter how many points they shoot down, the conspiracy theory has an infinite grab bag of other imagined connected points to use.
    I think you're using an extreme example as an archetype, as though Alex Jones is a reliable and popular example of anyone who holds a conspiracy theory. I don't think your broad generalizations on this topic are fair.

    It's entirely natural for people to see patterns and connections in life that may or may not actually exist. It seems that for the conspiracy theorist this ability is dialed to eleven.
    Bolded emphasis mine. There is no archetype of "the conspiracy theorist." They range from chronically mentally ill paranoid people to thoughtful, educated self-admitted skeptics and cynics.

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    Re: Sickening Video Claims Lee Rigby Murder was a Hoax

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    I didn't realize there was a difference between a conspiracy theory and a conspiracy theory. But in any event this is aligned with what I said. Some theories are less plausible than others.
    Of course. However, the conspiracy theory has taken on its own meaning in pop culture, separate from the objectively innocent words "conspiracy" and "theory." Keep in mind, I'm not saying conspiracies, even big audience pleasers like giant coverups by big powerful organizations, don't exist. Of course they do, but a conspiracy theorist sees these where the facts simply don't support them in anyway. They usually connect various facts with "common sense" to support their theory, building an entire structure on a foundation of supposition. Hilariously, much of that foundation is made up of citations to other conspiracy blogs, which cite other conspiracy blogs, and which ends up citing the first person's conspiracy blog. And thus the serpent consumes its own tail.

    I think you're using an extreme example as an archetype, as though Alex Jones is a reliable and popular example of anyone who holds a conspiracy theory. I don't think your broad generalizations on this topic are fair.
    There are consistent behaviors in conspiracy theorists. Just go peruse the Conspiracy forum (if you must), and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about.

    Bolded emphasis mine. There is no archetype of "the conspiracy theorist." They range from chronically mentally ill paranoid people to thoughtful, educated self-admitted skeptics and cynics.
    And how many conspiracy theorists would refer to themselves as chronically ill or paranoid?

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    Re: Sickening Video Claims Lee Rigby Murder was a Hoax

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Of course. However, the conspiracy theory has taken on its own meaning in pop culture, separate from the objectively innocent words "conspiracy" and "theory." Keep in mind, I'm not saying conspiracies, even big audience pleasers like giant coverups by big powerful organizations, don't exist. Of course they do, but a conspiracy theorist sees these where the facts simply don't support them in anyway. They usually connect various facts with "common sense" to support their theory, building an entire structure on a foundation of supposition.
    Hence the word theory.

    theory |ˈθēərē; ˈθi(ə)rē|
    noun ( pl. -ries)
    a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something
    You're basically criticizing conspiracy theorists for having theories. They understand it's theory. Expecting a conspiracy theory to be supported by irrefutable factual evidence is to expect theories to not be theories.

    And how many conspiracy theorists would refer to themselves as chronically ill or paranoid?
    Doesn't really matter, because that's really just a question of the self-awareness of paranoid/chronically mentally ill. How many of the paranoid chronically mentally ill refer to themselves as paranoid and chronically mentally ill?
    Last edited by Neomalthusian; 06-05-13 at 06:02 PM.

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    Re: Sickening Video Claims Lee Rigby Murder was a Hoax

    Quote Originally Posted by ModerateGOP View Post
    Hours after students at the London Metropolitan University, part of the Islamic Society which obviously sympathizes with Muslisms and perhaps terrorists,
    And there goes any claim you had on reasonable discussion of this. Didn't even make it one sentence. How very moderate of you!
    He touched her over her bra and underpants, she says, and guided her hand to touch him over his underwear
    Quote Originally Posted by Lutherf View Post
    We’ll say what? Something like “nothing happened” ... Yeah, we might say something like that.

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    Re: Sickening Video Claims Lee Rigby Murder was a Hoax

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Hence the word theory.
    A rather generous use of the word, if we're being exact. Theory in this context certainly wouldn't live up to the rigid scientific sense of the word.

    You're basically criticizing conspiracy theorists for having theories. They understand it's theory. Expecting a conspiracy theory to be supported by irrefutable factual evidence is to expect theories to not be theories.
    No, I'm criticizing them for being conspiracy theorists, the specifics of which I already stated earlier.

    Doesn't really matter, because that's really just a question of the self-awareness of paranoid/chronically mentally ill. How many of the paranoid chronically mentally ill refer to themselves as paranoid and chronically mentally ill?
    That's the point.

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    Re: Sickening Video Claims Lee Rigby Murder was a Hoax

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    A rather generous use of the word, if we're being exact. Theory in this context certainly wouldn't live up to the rigid scientific sense of the word.
    Not many other than scientists formulate their opinions and beliefs according to rigorous scientific method. Some people like to claim they do to lend strength to their opinions, but overall it's pretty common to formulate beliefs based on assumptions and theory rather than arduously constructed scientific proof. Especially when it comes to very complex systems with innumerable variables that can only be partially dealt with by advanced statistical methods.

    No, I'm criticizing them for being conspiracy theorists, the specifics of which I already stated earlier.
    But you're using the definition of the word theory to try to ridicule them, even though there's nothing inherently ridiculous about having a theory.

    That's the point.
    If that's your point, then you're just pushing a stereotype.

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    Re: Sickening Video Claims Lee Rigby Murder was a Hoax

    Hint: if you're defending conspiracy theorists, it's probably because you are one. Seriously, if you've ever really argued with one, you know that they'll believe any outlandish lie (Holocaust didn't happen for example), ignore mountains of evidence that cuts against their claim, yet believe some obscure YouTube video.

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    Re: Sickening Video Claims Lee Rigby Murder was a Hoax

    Quote Originally Posted by Neomalthusian View Post
    Not many other than scientists formulate their opinions and beliefs according to rigorous scientific method. Some people like to claim they do to lend strength to their opinions, but overall it's pretty common to formulate beliefs based on assumptions and theory rather than arduously constructed scientific proof. Especially when it comes to very complex systems with innumerable variables that can only be partially dealt with by advanced statistical methods.
    Formulating beliefs on assumptions is the problem. An assumption is a forgivable place to start (at least I hope it's forgivable -- I have assumptions all the time), but to base a belief on them is a problem, especially when one holds to that belief in spite of numerous successful challenges to those assumptions. One of the many problems of the conspiracy theorist is that his belief never wavers in spite of how many of those assumptions are shown to be baseless.

    But you're using the definition of the word theory to try to ridicule them, even though there's nothing inherently ridiculous about having a theory.
    I already answered this.

    If that's your point, then you're just pushing a stereotype.
    My point is that how people might think of themselves (such as "skeptical" or "paranoid delusional") is irrelevant because an insane person wouldn't be able to properly gauge the extent of his own delusion.

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    Re: Sickening Video Claims Lee Rigby Murder was a Hoax

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    And there goes any claim you had on reasonable discussion of this. Didn't even make it one sentence. How very moderate of you!
    Why isn't descrbing the islamic society as a bunch of radical Muslims who sympathize with the Muslim terrorists in the London attack moderate? The official report called it terrorism. This group obviously sympathizes with the terrorists. It's what the group does!

    May I also point out that a bunch of these conspiracy theorists relate to the Jewish conspiracy which controls all banks and money thereby suppressing the Muslim faith.
    May I also point out that a bunch of these conspiracy theorists also believe that Israel is an evil evil place, much like their hatred for the US. They view us as the oppressers and their attacks on us as blow back.
    Funny they never mention Christians.
    There's no greater irony than a Trump supporter pointing out hypocrisy; Unless it's Trump himself.

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    Re: Sickening Video Claims Lee Rigby Murder was a Hoax

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Formulating beliefs on assumptions is the problem. An assumption is a forgivable place to start (at least I hope it's forgivable -- I have assumptions all the time), but to base a belief on them is a problem, especially when one holds to that belief in spite of numerous successful challenges to those assumptions.
    Basing beliefs or decisions on assumptions or intuition is not necessarily a problem. If an acquaintance tells you he's fallen on hard times and needs a place to stay, but you get a sketchy vibe from him, you might decide he can't stay at your home even though you do not have verifiable proof he would take advantage of you. When you make an investment decision, can you verifiably prove it will do well? We make all sorts of important decisions based on some degree of sensing or intuiting rather than on proof. Religious thought is abound with this and we let people believe what they will. It's not necessarily a problem.

    One of the many problems of the conspiracy theorist is that his belief never wavers in spite of how many of those assumptions are shown to be baseless.
    Atheists may say this about theists, but neither they nor you can really sum it up as an all out "problem." You will try though.

    My point is that how people might think of themselves (such as "skeptical" or "paranoid delusional") is irrelevant because an insane person wouldn't be able to properly gauge the extent of his own delusion.
    But not all conspiracy theorists are delusional.

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