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Thread: Military strikes on side of the demonstrators

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    Military strikes on side of the demonstrators

    Türkei : Militär schlägt sich auf Seite der Demonstranten - Nachrichten Politik - Ausland - DIE WELT

    This is about the protests in Turkey.

    THE ARTICLE IS IN GERMAN. USE GOOGLE TRANSLATE OR USE CHROME TO TRANSLATE THE ARTICLE. I WILL POST THE MORE IMPORTANT PARTS HERE, IN ENGLISH OFC.

    At the protests against the Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan, the military helps paramedics and distributed face masks to protesters. The army hates Erdogan - they will also intervene
    It was again a violent night in Istanbul - and not only there. In Antakya one protester died, apparently from gunshot wounds. On Monday it had at protests first casualties given. Situated in Istanbul city center of many tens of thousands of protesters were in the middle of the night again gathered amid clouds of tear gas around Taksim Square - not "hundreds" as it was called in some agency reports.
    his raises the question as to whose side the military would actually stand if the conflict continues to escalate. The Turkish police is now regarded as political through and through penetrated by the ruling AKP party, especially where there are also many supporters of the Islamic Gulen Movement have the say. This may explain the extraordinary brutality of the police action against the protesters since Friday: Because if Erdogan should fall, it would certainly lead to a wave of purges in the ranks of the police.

    There can be no doubt that the military Erdogan and the AKP government at all abhor. With show trials against hundreds of officers Erdogan broke in the last few years the officer corps back. Some with dubious "evidence", accompanied by systematic character assassination in the pro-government Islamic media, was accused them that they wanted to overthrow the government.
    But another overthrow an elected government by the military? It would be the fifth in the history of Turkey. But that is unlikely. The Army has learned her lesson: The people want democracy, not nannying by their masters. Neither the military nor by Erdogan.
    ---
    Basically, Erdogan had made several attempts to get the army strictly under political control by replacing generals with his own people. However, it seems that much of the army is not liking what the PM did and he had lost control over them. Will it be as far as to move against him? So far they are just aiding the protesters with medical supplies, keeping the hospitals open (because the police had tried to close hospitals and deny treatment to injured protesters) and so and so.

    The number of civilian deaths is closing to 100 (this is what a friend of mine, protester, from turkey told me. I can't vouch that it is 100% certain). Those injured, hundreds. The protests in Turkey are in about 40+ cities for some time now.

    Traditionally, the military had always been on the side of the people as it were. At least in the last 3 cues the military did to the govt only to hand back democracy. They removed the "cancer" and allowed the healing to begin. Now, even though the top brass is under political command because Erdogran put them there.. the majority of the army seems to be act independently of what those people want.

    So its a curious situation. Surely, we will see a lot more increase in tensions as a soon, the protests in turkey will be a week old.
    Last edited by Rainman05; 06-04-13 at 04:27 PM.

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    Re: Military strikes on side of the demonstrators

    Yeah the military erring on the side of not mowing citizens down in the street is probably more about their long-term self-preservation than the politics of the current dispute.

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    Re: Military strikes on side of the demonstrators

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    Traditionally, the military had always been on the side of the people as it were.
    This is an historical trend. Whenever the government starts to pull into religious theocracy, the military steps in and reboots. This time, however, the military doesn't have a situation where the government is heading into the wrong direction. The people are protesting an event and are behaving as if their elected president is a dictator on the rise (Bush and Obama have received similar accusations from American population idiots). Elements within the crowd are also angry over Turkey's stance in regards to Syria and they are accusing the government of being a puppet of Europe and the U.S. who are on the side of the rebels (who also have radical thugs within). Elements within the crowd are also genuinely seeking to overthrow the government in "Arab Spring" fashion, but for favor of theocracy.

    It's a situation like all MENA situations. Nobody can ever do the "right" thing because nobody knows what the "right" thing ever is. Even practicing apathy and minding your own business will find you accused of allowing slaughter to go on. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. It's a theme. The Turkish population is still in its first days of experimentation with democracy. They prove been proving that since 1922. But no judgement. It took the French almost 60 years to get democracy right.
    Last edited by MSgt; 06-04-13 at 05:16 PM.

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    Re: Military strikes on side of the demonstrators

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisher View Post
    Yeah the military erring on the side of not mowing citizens down in the street is probably more about their long-term self-preservation than the politics of the current dispute.
    They are also answering to Western criticism. Turkey has been bidding to get into the EU for over 20 years and is a member of NATO.

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    Re: Military strikes on side of the demonstrators

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    This is an historical trend. Whenever the government starts to pull into religious theocracy, the military steps in and reboots. This time, however, the military doesn't have a situation where the government is heading into the wrong direction. The people are protesting an event and are behaving as if their elected president is a dictator on the rise (Bush and Obama have received similar accusations from American population idiots). Elements within the crowd are also angry over Turkey's stance in regards to Syria and they are accusing the government of being a puppet of Europe and the U.S. who are on the side of the rebels (who also have radical thugs within). Elements within the crowd are also genuinely seeking to overthrow the government in "Arab Spring" fashion, but for favor of theocracy.

    It's a situation like all MENA situations. Nobody can ever do the "right" thing because nobody knows what the "right" thing ever is. Even practicing apathy and minding your own business will find you accused of allowing slaughter to go on. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. It's a theme. The Turkish population is still in its first days of experimentation with democracy. They prove been proving that since 1922. But no judgement. It took the French almost 60 years to get democracy right.
    I don't think you can put Obama in the same pot as Erdrogan. Yes, the protesters have a lot of axes to grind with a lot of issues, some to us may seem logical, others, not so much. But it is their right to protest and be heard and the govt to respond to the voice of the people.

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    Re: Military strikes on side of the demonstrators

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post
    I don't think you can put Obama in the same pot as Erdrogan. Yes, the protesters have a lot of axes to grind with a lot of issues, some to us may seem logical, others, not so much. But it is their right to protest and be heard and the govt to respond to the voice of the people.
    He's not in the same pot. Nor is Bush. It doesn't change the fact that plenty of Americans celebrated their freedom to accuse the guy they hated as a dictator. Some Turks are merely doing the same.

    You are offerring a very pleasant blanket theory of protestor utopia, but you can't relate. Idiots in an American crowd will turn the "99%" protest into an excuse to protest government while whining about the proximity of the moon to Starbucks. Idiots in a MENA crowd will seek to ignite violence and mayhem. So, sure, they have the "right," but their police force have bigger issues to appreciate in the crowd than ours.

    And by the way, the government doesn't have to respond to crap. The American government generally doesn't even respond. People just whine and whine until the event comes to a natural close or the crowd remembers that "Game of Thrones" has a new episode airing.

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    Re: Military strikes on side of the demonstrators

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    He's not in the same pot. Nor is Bush. It doesn't change the fact that plenty of Americans celebrated their freedom to accuse the guy they hated as a dictator. Some Turks are merely doing the same.

    You are offerring a very pleasant blanket theory of protestor utopia, but you can't relate. Idiots in an American crowd will turn the "99%" protest into an excuse to protest government while whining about the proximity of the moon to Starbucks. Idiots in a MENA crowd will seek to ignite violence and mayhem. So, sure, they have the "right," but their police force have bigger issues to appreciate in the crowd than ours.

    And by the way, the government doesn't have to respond to crap. The American government generally doesn't even respond. People just whine and whine until the event comes to a natural close or the crowd remembers that "Game of Thrones" has a new episode airing.
    Again, different nations, different people. You need to also take into account that most protests don't go unnoticed in the USA or the civilized world.
    The government of Turkey is in the wrong the moment it started to engage in a total media blackout, because over there, there is no real freedom of the press.

    So of course things for the protesters and the protest itself took a turn for the worse. What happened in the USA with the 99%-enters? They rallied. They shouted. People paid attention and the 99% crow failed to capitalize on the media attention. They were correctly identified as a bunch of nobody's and losers who have no purpose and no goal just to cause havoc. They had no demands and hence, they were a bunch of tree hugging, litter-bug hippies.

    In Turkey, apparently, these people are protesting out of numerous reasons and they have clear demands. They want Erdrogan out of office and his lackeys out too. Hence, the blackout in the media.

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    Re: Military strikes on side of the demonstrators

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainman05 View Post

    In Turkey, apparently, these people are protesting out of numerous reasons and they have clear demands. They want Erdrogan out of office and his lackeys out too. Hence, the blackout in the media.
    Edrogan isn't going anywhere until he is elected out. He is not a dictator any more than any elected official in the West is a dictator. Therefore, those that are protesting his presidency in search of that ever illusive theocracy are just lending a stage for the crazies who are hijacking the protest and causing violence. Turks are behaving like idiots or should I say MENA Muslims? There is a female Turk on this sight that is cinvinced that her corrupt Turkish government is the fault of the U.S. who is making it support the rebel terrorists in Syria. 90 years later and they still don't understand how the election process works.

    For that matter, look at the U.S. Did any Democrat or liberal remove Bush? Has any Republican or conservative removed Obama? Whining because you can is pointless.

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    Re: Military strikes on side of the demonstrators

    It's a nice start of the election season. I'd certainly love to see the AKP lose its majority.

    A mature democracy respects its minorities. There was no need to crush the protest in Istanbul. And Erdogans response to the matter has been very unfitting for someone who proclaims to be a democrat. He's supposed to be the PM of all Turkish people. Reports about dead people, over 3000 wounded, and Erdogans threatening to call out his supporters.

    However, I can't make sense of those accusations against the EU and US.

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    Re: Military strikes on side of the demonstrators

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Edrogan isn't going anywhere until he is elected out. He is not a dictator any more than any elected official in the West is a dictator. Therefore, those that are protesting his presidency in search of that ever illusive theocracy are just lending a stage for the crazies who are hijacking the protest and causing violence. Turks are behaving like idiots or should I say MENA Muslims? There is a female Turk on this sight that is cinvinced that her corrupt Turkish government is the fault of the U.S. who is making it support the rebel terrorists in Syria. 90 years later and they still don't understand how the election process works.

    For that matter, look at the U.S. Did any Democrat or liberal remove Bush? Has any Republican or conservative removed Obama? Whining because you can is pointless.
    I am not listening to what that female turk on this site has to say. I have a friend in Turkey who is a protester and who told me a lot of the things I posted about in the thread in the Europe subforum. Pages 5 and 6 I think. 3-4 posts. I trust him to be a more objective fella though he could be wrong.

    Politicians can be protested out of office. Mass protests can call for a referendum. It's not like you are stuck with the guy you vote in office for the duration of his term. You are a legitimate president or elected official as long as the people consider you to be.

    Again, I cannot stress the importance of the fact that freedom of speech and the freedom of the press are virtually innexistent in Turkey for the past few days. This to me shows that there is something incredibly wrong with the country and with those in power. I cannot possibly absolve Edrogan and take his side since he practices such censorship.

    I am not going to say that the protesters are in the right. I am just saying that they know what they want. They have a clear mission, unlike the 99% group in the USA. But in the case of islamic countries, we see again and again, first in Egypt and then in Libya, the protests/revolts that happened there only lead to a dissolution of the secular dictator in favor of an islamist. I am thinking that if Turkey goes down the route of mass protests to remove him, that the turks don't really replace him with a genuine islamist. Edrogan is an islamist only in name, he just calls himself that to gain votes. Or so I am told.

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