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IRS: Cheapest Obamacare Plan Will Be $20,000 Per Family

Sometimes it is not a matter of planning. I worked for a large corporation for two decades and then went into business for myself and have to deal with the insurance market in my new circumstances. Should I have stayed with the big company just for insurance? Many people do exactly that, even though the have the knowledge, skill, and resources to be entrepreneurs. How do you think this effects our overall economy?

You've made a ridiculous statement here, you realize, right? The added cost to employers and entrepreneurs of Obamacare is what has everyone worried.


Single payer is the only real solution because choice is taken out of the equation. If you are American, you will be insured. If you make money, you will pay for it. If you think that removing choice is wrong, I will point out that the choice of whether to pay for the care of others was taken away decades ago under Ronald Reagan with the passage of the Emergency Medical Treatment And Active Labor Act that was basically an unfunded mandate for universal healthcare. America refuses to allow the sick to go without treatment, whether they can or intend to pay for that treatment. Once society made THAT decision, healthcare essentially became a defacto right. If you disagree with this, then you should lobby for the repeal of EMTALA and let people that can pay go without care, but I'll tell you right now, there is no almost support for that.


So, to sum up, health care is a "defacto right" and you want to take all choice in this "right" out of the hands of the individual and hand it to the state... essentially taking the rights away in the process.


In other words, you haven't thought the above paragraph out too thoroughly.


It is stupid to say that ALL will get care but we are not going to build a system for all to get care, we'll just say treat them and bury the costs in insurance costs, medical costs, and taxes.


Which of course is exactly what we do now. So the idiotic fix is no different.


We spend an estimated $50 billion a year on EMTALA costs

The entire US health care system is 16% of the economy. So TOTAL EMPTALA, by your own argument is roughly 2% of the entire US annual medical expense.... so your argument is to abandon the entire system to save some fraction of 2%.


why not just build it into the system and have health insurance for all. Extend Medicare to age 0, and watch the individual costs go down as we stop socializing the highest risk Americans (those over 65) and privatizing the lowest risk Americans.


Because it's not that easy?


My heart doesn't bleed, but my head is exploding at the stupidity.


I'm going to not make the obvious joke here, but thanks for the set up.
 
You are placing 100% of the blame in an area responsible for maybe 20% of the problem, and using that to centralize, and take over the industry against the will of the people....That to me is absurd....I wish for one moment you'd give up your hatred against capitalism and look at this with objective eyes.

No no no.. I placing 80% of the blame on the industry itself and 20% on the politicians because they are nothing but the lackey's of the industry. That gives 100%. Do I blame Obama? Of course, he was not tough enough with the industry.. but I also blame the GOP and Dems for bending over and taking it up the.. every year for decades and allowing this system to go on and on. I also blame the GOP for first suggesting single payer system and when Obama took it up, then doing a 180 and being against it.. pathetic.

Why are there no investigations in Congress to explain why a specific medical procedure in the New York/New Jersey area costs from 7k to 99k? Instead they are wasting their time on Bengahzi and IRS and what not.. what do you think impacts the average American more?

And I have no problem with capitalism .. in fact I am very much for it, but I also understand that capitalism is flawed when not kept under scrutiny because it is human nature to exploit others for their own benefit. Flawed capitalism is why we have socialism and unions. They are the reaction to centuries of abuse while capitalism grew up.

In this case the whole industry is built up in a cartel like system, where the insurance companies and the healthcare system not only work together but set the rules to benefit themselves at the cost of the consumer. Have you ever wondered why there are so few insurance companies considering the amount of money in the healthcare system? Cause you cant just set up shop in most states... its not allowed because local law prevents it.

Look at one of the first laws Bush signed into law after the 2000 election. It prohibited the Federal government in negotiating the cheapest price with the pharma industry.. and it made it a criminal offence to take a few boxes of asprin over the Canadian border, let alone import drugs sold from the US into Canada back.. because that would cut into the profit margins in the US...

So yes, the industry is to blame because they control the politicians who write the rules and can change the system. As long as they do that, then YOU will be paying more and more for your healthcare and I pray to god that no one in your family ever gets seriously ill because chances are you wont be able to absorb a 100+k bill despite having insurance.
 
The free market does not work in healthcare. How much more evidence do you need??

How about some evidence that the free market doesn't work in heath care?
 
Are you kidding? We have the most expensive healthcare system in the world and lag in all major indicators. One surgery cost 4k in one hospital and 90k in the next and you want to proof? REally?
How about some evidence that the free market doesn't work in heath care?
 
That study compares England to Europe. Not the US. By the way, have you heard about all those countries trying to get rid of their UHC system and get one like ours?

It doesn't need to compare US and UK directly. The drugs in that story are available in the US.

The French system isn't faring much better, but they are shuttering hospitals rather than cutting as deeply into medication expenditures.
 
Are you kidding? We have the most expensive healthcare system in the world and lag in all major indicators. One surgery cost 4k in one hospital and 90k in the next and you want to proof? REally?


So you don't have proof of these claims then?
 
You cant get all available drugs here either.
It doesn't need to compare US and UK directly. The drugs in that story are available in the US.

The French system isn't faring much better, but they are shuttering hospitals rather than cutting as deeply into medication expenditures.
 
I don't really understand how so many people on this forum think our healthcare is even remotely good? I can't think of a person I have ever met in real life that described our health care system as providing quality care at affordable prices? Where are you guys getting these notions that all is well??? It is absolutely baffling.

If you have any kind of substantial health issue arise it ends in massive bills. 10k, 25k, if something really bad happens 100k+

Only the top 10% or people with incredibly good insurance can weather this without significant economic hardship or in many cases bankruptcy, ruin.

Who the hell calls that "good"?

If you look at statistics, rankings, indicators, almost all of them are embarrassingly bad for the U.S. compared to other developed countries. We came behind CUBA for gods sake.

Of course right-wing propaganda tells a different story, all is well the rich tell the fools, lol.
 
You cant get all available drugs here either.

But here it is because the FDA runs studies on efficacy, in the UK you are denied effective medicine because of cost. Surely you can see the difference there?
 
That is what they have been told over and over.
I don't really understand how so many people on this forum think our healthcare is even remotely good? I can't think of a person I have ever met in real life that described our health care system as providing quality care at affordable prices? Where are you guys getting these notions that all is well??? It is absolutely baffling.

If you have any kind of substantial health issue arise it ends in massive bills. 10k, 25k, if something really bad happens 100k+

Only the top 10% or people with incredibly good insurance can weather this without significant economic hardship or in many cases bankruptcy, ruin.

Who the hell calls that "good"?

If you look at statistics, rankings, indicators, almost all of them are embarrassingly bad for the U.S. compared to other developed countries. We came behind CUBA for gods sake.

Of course right-wing propaganda tells a different story, all is well the rich tell the fools, lol.
 
Tell your insurace company. See what you get.
But here it is because the FDA runs studies on efficacy, in the UK you are denied effective medicine because of cost. Surely you can see the difference there?
 
“Not all patients with a particular condition benefit from a drug and some drugs only work really well for some patients or at a particular stage in a disease.

“It is wrong to recommend the use of treatments where the additional benefit is uncertain.

“This is misleading for patients and wastes scarce NHS resources.

“Drugs, especially those for cancer, which extend life at the end of life are very important and since January 2009, we have given special weight to them.


So in you mind it is better to deny everyone?

Sounds like this might be a good argument for their postion. Maybe a little evidnece based medicine involved in decision making.
 
So in you mind it is better to deny everyone?

It's almost pointless engaging them. Obamacare has absolutely NOTHING to do with HealthCare and everything to do with control. If the Federal Government controls your HC, they can control every aspect of your life. It doesn't matter to these disciples who worship at the altar of Obama that another lie regarding Obamacare has been exposed. The agenda is what matters. Centralized Government Control over your life. Lies can be dismissed as long as they further the agenda. When more lies are exposed and more false promises are revealed, those will also be explained and spun away by Left Wing Big Government religious fanatics. Truth doesn't matter to them anymore. They sold out to Obama.

The sleazy and corrupt liberal controlled IRS is going to run this monstrosity. Nothing more needs to be said. The notion that because Government is taking over and controlling HC now it's going to make it better is laughable. It's grounded in a religious belief in Government. Not reality.

Lawsuit claims IRS agents illegally seized medical records - Washington Times
 
It was posted earlier in this thread, I beleive.


That is not evidence that the free market doesn't work, nor is it sufficient information to make a reasonable evaluation of WHY the costs vary.
 
Just wondering. Are you guys still dead set against Electronic Medical Records?
It's almost pointless engaging them. Obamacare has absolutely NOTHING to do with HealthCare and everything to do with control. If the Federal Government controls your HC, they can control every aspect of your life. It doesn't matter to these disciples who worship at the altar of Obama that another lie regarding Obamacare has been exposed. The agenda is what matters. Centralized Government Control over your life. Lies can be dismissed as long as they further the agenda. When more lies are exposed and more false promises are revealed, those will also be explained and spun away by Left Wing Big Government religious fanatics. Truth doesn't matter to them anymore. They sold out to Obama.

The sleazy and corrupt liberal controlled IRS is going to run this monstrosity. Nothing more needs to be said. The notion that because Government is taking over and controlling HC now it's going to make it better is laughable. It's grounded in a religious belief in Government. Not reality.

Lawsuit claims IRS agents illegally seized medical records - Washington Times
 
Just wondering. Are you guys still dead set against Electronic Medical Records?

Just wondering. Do you guys still think Government taking control of everyone's HC is going to make it cheaper and more efficient?
 
UHC will.
Just wondering. Do you guys still think Government taking control of everyone's HC is going to make it cheaper and more efficient?
 
“Not all patients with a particular condition benefit from a drug and some drugs only work really well for some patients or at a particular stage in a disease.


So shouldn't those people get the drug?


“It is wrong to recommend the use of treatments where the additional benefit is uncertain.


Let's break this statement down into the two key pieces:

1) The benefit of the drug is uncertain
2a) It's wrong to recommend a drug whose additional benefits are uncertain

While #1 is arguably true, the second in an abomination of socialized health care. Here is a different way to view #2:

2b) It is wrong to DENY a drug when it may be of benefit.

Until recently the US system operated under 2b.


“This is misleading for patients and wastes scarce NHS resources.


For those keeping score at home I bolded the one true statement made in this list of quotes.


“Drugs, especially those for cancer, which extend life at the end of life are very important and since January 2009, we have given special weight to them.


Bureaucratic mumbo jumbo that does only one thing: Admits that there is a problem in their system, and gives worthless assurances that they are doing better now. In fact, as the article showed they may very well be lying. I know, I know... a government official lying?! That never happens...


Sounds like this might be a good argument for their postion. Maybe a little evidnece based medicine involved in decision making.


It's actually a very poor argument. Do you give away all your freedoms for such weak sop?
 
I don't really understand how so many people on this forum think our healthcare is even remotely good? I can't think of a person I have ever met in real life that described our health care system as providing quality care at affordable prices? Where are you guys getting these notions that all is well??? It is absolutely baffling.

If you have any kind of substantial health issue arise it ends in massive bills. 10k, 25k, if something really bad happens 100k+

Only the top 10% or people with incredibly good insurance can weather this without significant economic hardship or in many cases bankruptcy, ruin.

Who the hell calls that "good"?

If you look at statistics, rankings, indicators, almost all of them are embarrassingly bad for the U.S. compared to other developed countries. We came behind CUBA for gods sake.

Of course right-wing propaganda tells a different story, all is well the rich tell the fools, lol.

From an individuals point of view, I can certainly see how people think the system is good. If you are an individual with insurance provided by a large corporation who either self insures or negotiates rates based on a massive group size, and that company benefits from the tax subsidies for health insurance, you might see just a few dollars coming out of your check every month and have great coverage. The group of people that enjoy these plans is a good sized group, and when you combine them with other people who are very happy with the status quo (on an individual level), like folks on Medicare, you have more than 50% of the country who has it pretty good. Medicaid recipients have it alright as do veterans.

What you are left with is a minority that is getting severely shafted, these are people like me that run their own businesses or people that work for small businesses who don't a group size large enough to negotiate competitive rates. The solution to this COULD have been the public option, whereby everyone who wanted to be in the public option group could be, making it a VERY LARGE group that could have negotiated rates as well as better as any big company. But alas, the insurance industry lobbied HARD against this with hundreds of millions of dollars, protecting their $20 billion in profits by controlling our $2T health industry.

There really are two Americas when it comes to healthcare, but it is not a rich/poor dichotomy, but a matter of systemic luck, if you happen to be in the groups that are in good shape, you have good coverage and the best medical care on the planet, if you are not part of these groups, your access, costs, and outcomes are severely altered for the worse. If you look at the US in totality we perform poorly in comparison along virtually every major variable, but if you were to look at the same statistics among the insured, we would likely be well ahead of the rest of the world, and conversely if you looked at everyone in America that does not fall into those groups of good coverage, our standings and outcomes would be much farther below the rest of the world.

What the people who are getting screwed are saying is that they don't care if the system blows up for everyone else, it has been blown up for them for a long, long time, and it may be that the only way we will address the real problems as a society is everyone gets a taste of how bad it has been for the rest for a long time.

I have been paying nearly 20k a year for a while now because I am an entrepreneur in a small business. I would like a level playing field on healthcare costs with big business employees, I am healthier and take better care of myself that most of those people, but am left out because I am not part of big corporate America. Leveling the playing field should mean that I can get coverage for the same rates the big corporations pay, but if means that they pay the crazy high premiums I pay, so be it, that will still move us along toward a fix.
 
Actually chemo drugs and many other drugs are very dangerous, and all drugs have side effects. and no, if there is no reason to belive it will help, or if it will cause more harm than good, to a patient it should not be given. Think of it as risk vs benefit. I have seen chemo cause great harm and even have fatal side effects. I dont even know where you got the 2b idea or the rest of that post. Are you a doctor or did you stay at the Holiday Inn Express last night? But I gotta go home. Nice chatting with you today
So shouldn't those people get the drug?





Let's break this statement down into the two key pieces:

1) The benefit of the drug is uncertain
2a) It's wrong to recommend a drug whose additional benefits are uncertain

While #1 is arguably true, the second in an abomination of socialized health care. Here is a different way to view #2:

2b) It is wrong to DENY a drug when it may be of benefit.

Until recently the US system operated under 2b.





For those keeping score at home I bolded the one true statement made in this list of quotes.





Bureaucratic mumbo jumbo that does only one thing: Admits that there is a problem in their system, and gives worthless assurances that they are doing better now. In fact, as the article showed they may very well be lying. I know, I know... a government official lying?! That never happens...





It's actually a very poor argument. Do you give away all your freedoms for such weak sop?
 
This has been going around for a while now. The $20k figure comes from an example the IRS uses in one of their publications. At this point I'm not even sure anybody knows what a "Bronze Level" plan will have to consist of.

That being said, we do know what the penalties are going to be and I'll pretty much guarantee you that for someone single, in good health and with no kids it will be a whole lot cheaper to pay the fine.

Cheaper but you get nothing for your money. It's cheaper just to die too if that is all you care about.
 
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