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Thread: IRS higher-ups requested info on conservative groups, letters show

  1. #21
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    Re: IRS higher-ups requested info on conservative groups, letters show

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Emails don't have to be anonymous. There are ways.

    I agree with you that an anonymous email is the stuff of lies . . . or fear . . . regards this particular issue.
    My problem is the Mak2 is holding up emails as proof of lies by all or even most RW sources, its just a stupid hill to die on, intellectually.

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    Re: IRS higher-ups requested info on conservative groups, letters show

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    What facts? The only supposed fact in your post is regards operating as a 501c4 while the application is pending. That's, at best, a half-truth and very misleading at that. One cannot advertise ones' business as a 501c4 unless one is a 501c4. An organization cannot even plan a budget until they are sure they are a 501c4. Tax-exempt status is granted. Not assumed.
    You can operate as a 501c4 without filling out the application and advertise yourself as a community group under the code without filing the application. the code only says you should do it. You are quite capable of filing under that status using legal expertise to do so. It is not a legal requirement to file the application, but it would probably be a good CYA step to do so. I too was under the mistaken impression the IRS required approval to operate under that code. I was wrong when i thought that. yes, i have looked at the code.

    Also, let us say worse comes to worse and the group was not approved for that status, which according to the IRS investigation up until now no tea party group suffered from this. It doesn't stop you from doing business. You just have to pay taxes. There is no real approval for opening up a corporation and making money. You just have to create the company and file your incorporation papers. The longest thing you have to do is apply for an EIN which they just issue you. The worst you have to do is to pay some fees. So none of these groups were actually prevented from operating. The only thing they might not be able to do is to claim tax free status as a 501c4. I should also note that just because the IRS approves you for that status does not mean you are good come tax time to claim yourself as a 501c4. If you violate the regulations for that status you can be subject to monetary and criminal penalties under the law. This is why operation is more important than approval under the code.

    Just to go a step further the 501c4 section is not created for political groups. It is for community groups. The tea party is walking a very tight line with this. really, what does the tea party actually do for communities? they put forth their political ideas and organize voters. those are very political actions and they fall very close to violation of the code. They are not running an Housing Association which might find some reasons to argue some zoning law while they perform a number of other community functions. The tea party is blatantly political, and just as any democrat or republican group operating under that code they should really be tossed off. The government should not be providing tax free status to promote and endorse political ideology. I think they should make the law much more specific and require political activism to be taxed equally. You could easily have a community group pay taxes on their political activity under present filing conditions. It is not unheard of to have NFPs actually pay taxes on certain activities that fall outside of their tax free income.

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    Re: IRS higher-ups requested info on conservative groups, letters show

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    You can operate as a 501c4 without filling out the application and advertise yourself as a community group under the code without filing the application. the code only says you should do it. You are quite capable of filing under that status using legal expertise to do so. It is not a legal requirement to file the application, but it would probably be a good CYA step to do so. I too was under the mistaken impression the IRS required approval to operate under that code. I was wrong when i thought that. yes, i have looked at the code.

    Also, let us say worse comes to worse and the group was not approved for that status, which according to the IRS investigation up until now no tea party group suffered from this. It doesn't stop you from doing business. You just have to pay taxes. There is no real approval for opening up a corporation and making money. You just have to create the company and file your incorporation papers. The longest thing you have to do is apply for an EIN which they just issue you. The worst you have to do is to pay some fees. So none of these groups were actually prevented from operating. The only thing they might not be able to do is to claim tax free status as a 501c4. I should also note that just because the IRS approves you for that status does not mean you are good come tax time to claim yourself as a 501c4. If you violate the regulations for that status you can be subject to monetary and criminal penalties under the law. This is why operation is more important than approval under the code.

    Just to go a step further the 501c4 section is not created for political groups. It is for community groups. The tea party is walking a very tight line with this. really, what does the tea party actually do for communities? they put forth their political ideas and organize voters. those are very political actions and they fall very close to violation of the code. They are not running an Housing Association which might find some reasons to argue some zoning law while they perform a number of other community functions. The tea party is blatantly political, and just as any democrat or republican group operating under that code they should really be tossed off. The government should not be providing tax free status to promote and endorse political ideology. I think they should make the law much more specific and require political activism to be taxed equally. You could easily have a community group pay taxes on their political activity under present filing conditions. It is not unheard of to have NFPs actually pay taxes on certain activities that fall outside of their tax free income.
    Advocating lower taxes is purely political? Social justice groups regularly advocate higher taxes...so arent they being political?

    The problem is that public good and social justice have become almost interchangeable when they really are not. Social justice almost universally advocates a liberal, democrat worldview and agrees with democrats on most issues. Liberal groups are not being defined by their political activities because the liberal definition of the public good is more accepted in Washington, but conservative groups are being held to extra scrutiny and having their application (accept or deny) held up for their political stances.

    If you were to apply that fine line to say the SPLC or NAACP, and be honest about it, they regularly advocate liberal policies and candidates and attack conservative ideas and candidates. Bottom line: liberal groups have been getting a pass for a very long time on this issue. Both sides should or neither side should. I see a lot of liberals talking about conservative groups should have been targeted yet they are griping about extra scrutiny the NAACP recieved when they were running attack ads back in 2003.

    My opinion is and remains no one should be targeted but their books should be open to examination at any time. Their membership, their facebook, their prayerbook!, should not.

  4. #24
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    Re: IRS higher-ups requested info on conservative groups, letters show

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is exactly what the IRS is supposed to do with these groups, political organizations trying to pass themselves off as social welfare or charity organizations. And in an investigation you need information. The only problem was they didn't give the liberal groups trying to cheat the tax system the same level of analysis.

    I can understand conservative angry that these groups were treated differently, but I can't understand their anger that many of them weren't able to cheat the American taxpayer. Integrity is a lost virtue.
    Well, at a very minimum, at least you admit the Gestapo/IRS is a tool of Leftists.
    Last edited by zimmer; 05-29-13 at 11:38 AM.
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    Re: IRS higher-ups requested info on conservative groups, letters show

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    It is called profiling, and yes it sucks when it falls on your group. However, the tea party loves it when they profile a muslim getting on a plane. they love it when Joe Arpio goes after hispanics in his area and demands their papers. They love it when cops stop and frisk every black man in the neighborhood because he might be selling drugs. Of course, they are the people who say taxes are wrong, and look at the IRS checking on them when they apply for a tax free organization to make sure they abide by the stricter rules of those oprganizations./

    Oh, and those applications are voluntary and do not actually restrict a organization from operating as a 501c4 during the time while the application is pending. I just figured I would add some facts and reality to your partisan hackery.
    Tererun... you are revealing a severe logic deficit. Let me help you:

    1. When Muslims are responsible for a disproportionate amount of terrorist crimes, it is wise to pull more of them aside. It's not racial profiling... it's called survival.
    2. When the majority of illegals are Hispanic and have a foreign akzent, the chances are greater that they are illegal.
    3. If you are in a hood with blacks and the area is known for criminal activity, you would be dumb not to investigate suspicious behavior.
    4. When the Gestapo/IRS targets only one side of the equation for political purposes... that My Dear is the use of a government agency to intimidate and suppress.


    I know you, and points 1 through 3 have you bouncing off the walls, so let me assist you with some clear thinking from a black man who isn't shackled by the Left's perverse political correctness. This in a Presidential Primary Debate in 2000.
    CNN Transcript - Larry King Live: South Carolina Republican Debate - February 15, 2000

    KING: All right, hopscotching to some other things, what do you think about racial profiling, Governor?

    ...

    KING: Alan?

    KEYES: I know everybody thinks that this doing some favor to a racial group, but if our police and enforcement people have the experience that a given crime is disproportionately being committed by folks from a given ethnic group, we are now going to pass a law that says you can't notice that?

    I -- I...

    KING: But they haven't done the crime yet.

    KEYES: Excuse me, no, no. All I'm saying is we're going to pass a law and we're going to enforce a law that says that we can't notice the characteristics of individuals who commit crimes and develop profiles to help folks pursue the solving of crimes based on our experience.

    Experience by the way is not prejudice. Prejudice is an opinion you form apart from experience, prior to experience. An opinion formed based on experience is not prejudice. It is judgment. And I think our law enforcement officers ought to be able to...

    KING: You wouldn't mind being stopped by a car if there was a high prevalence of...

    KEYES: You know the person I would blame for that? If there are black folks out there disproportionately committing certain kinds of crime, my parents raised me to know that I represent the race in every thing I do. And I wish that everybody would take that attitude and stop committing crimes and doing things that bring a bad reputation on to people.

    KING: But if you were stopped...

    KEYES: That's what I resent.

    KING: ... if you were stopped you wouldn't be angry?

    KEYES: I just told you who I would be angry at.
    Last edited by zimmer; 05-29-13 at 11:34 AM.
    The Clintons are what happens...
    when you have NO MORAL COMPASS.

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    Re: IRS higher-ups requested info on conservative groups, letters show

    Quote Originally Posted by mak2 View Post
    Why is that? morals, ethics and integrity used to be big on the right. If it still was there would not be sooooo many RW lies floating around the RW blogosphere. Just sayin...but when I typed that I was going for the funny implying the left never had them and the right lost them. But if you must be offened, please...
    I don't read the rightwing blogs. The Left lives in a glass house, look at the Prez.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: IRS higher-ups requested info on conservative groups, letters show

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    The President didn't have anything to do with this personally, and there's been no evidence to suggest he did.
    He hired the partisan hacks didn't he? That's the next thing down to giving the order yourself. The guy wanted to be President to execute a social justice agenda. And he will doze over anyone that stands in his way. I thought you were independent, seems you never have a right lean on any issue. The Left can't be correct on every issue could they? Even for you?
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

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    Re: IRS higher-ups requested info on conservative groups, letters show

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    No one said they should get scrutiny, but a liberal President putting the beat down on conservative groups stinks to high heaven, and he needs a beating for it. It's one thing to be partisan in a campaign, and quite another to apply the law differently.
    If that were true, I agree. But too many are running on the notion that it IS true (liberal president putting the beat down...), when there is no evidence supporting it and solid reason to believe it was just the IRS doing its job. The problem is that much of the Congressional inquiry is not about finding the truth; it is all about looking for the proverbial Northwest Passage between Obama directives and the IRS behavior; its a witch hunt.

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    Re: IRS higher-ups requested info on conservative groups, letters show

    Quote Originally Posted by tererun View Post
    The government should not be providing tax free status to promote and endorse political ideology. I think they should make the law much more specific and require political activism to be taxed equally. You could easily have a community group pay taxes on their political activity under present filing conditions. It is not unheard of to have NFPs actually pay taxes on certain activities that fall outside of their tax free income.
    You'll get no argument from me if they ALL had to pay taxes. But that's not the way it works. ACORN, as an example, was a 501c4, difference being any contribution to THAT organization was tax deductible, unlike c3's. If that wasn't filled with political ideology, I don't know what group was.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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    Re: IRS higher-ups requested info on conservative groups, letters show

    Quote Originally Posted by Imnukingfutz View Post
    Now you cant go having the IRS gutted, thats the biggest tool the Federal government has in keeping the citizenry under its thumb.
    For an alternative view from Walter Williams (and I am a fan-girl):

    Americans Deserve the IRS - Walter E. Williams - Page full

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