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Thread: Atheist State Lawmaker Quotes Carl Sagan Instead of Doing Prayer Before House Session

  1. #61
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    Re: Atheist State Lawmaker Quotes Carl Sagan Instead of Doing Prayer Before House Ses

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    I don't believe they did separate Church and State. If so where did they do that?
    Ahh, ye olde Teahadist argument that, because it does not explicitly state separation of church and state in the Constitution, then the merger of church and state is meant to be. Let me enjoy smacking down this line of manure. I will start with what was in the minds of our forefathers, then I will go to the Constitution itself, and bury your misguided misconception 6 feet under.

    Our forefathers - All of them were distrustful of religion, and they all remembered persecutions of those who did not adhere to a strict interpretation of religious thought in European countries.

    1) Thomas Jefferson was vocal about what he thought of church and state in his autobiography, in which he said this about the Religious Freedom Act that was passed by Virginia Colony.

    Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.
    And, in his letter to the Danbury Baptist Association, written in January 1802, Jefferson writes:

    I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.
    As you can see, Jefferson explicitly stated their intent when they passed the First Amendment - Separation of Church and State.

    2) James Madison was fearful of establishing religion in government. In a paper he wrote in 1785, called Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, he penned this, as an argument against the establishment of religion in government:

    Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity, in exclusion of all other Religions?
    With this background established, let's move on to the wording in the Constitution itself. While the words are not explicitly there, the idea certainly is.

    1) On oaths and affirmations in Article VI....

    ....but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
    2) The First Amendment's establishment clause.....

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.
    Quite simply means that no religion can be made the official religion of the United States.

    3) The Free Exercise clause, also part of the first amendment:

    or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...
    That's right. If someone wants to practice Islam, that is his right. If someone prefers to be an atheist, that is also his right. The government cannot, by law, interfere.

    3) So, if the government itself, by law, is not allowed to support a church, and members of government, by law, are not allowed to support a church, and neither government, nor members of government, by law, are allowed to force people to believe in any particular religion, or any religion at all, for that matter, then that is a brick wall of separation between church and state, and nothing can change that. Our forefathers were quite wise in setting it up this way. This keeps a minority, such as the Teahadists, from imposing their religion on others, just as Europeans did in the Middle Ages.

    The Teahadists, of course, have an agenda, which is why they use the silly argument "I don't see it", despite the fact that anyone with an IQ higher than a bag of hammers can see it quite easily. The Teahadists, by the way, are not idiots. They see it too. Their only problem is that they want to impose their own extremist agenda on everybody else, so are praying that this silly line of manure will hold up. It won't. The vast majority sees them for who they really are..... Petty, vindictive assholes.
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  2. #62
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    Re: Atheist State Lawmaker Quotes Carl Sagan Instead of Doing Prayer Before House Ses

    I don't have a problem with it. If the religious are allowed to share their views with the group, the non-religious should get a chance to do the same.
    If you build a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day.

    If you set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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    Re: Atheist State Lawmaker Quotes Carl Sagan Instead of Doing Prayer Before House Ses

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    Surprising that this happened in Arizona
    Aint it his right? Or aint it the land of the free and all that jazz?

    Now if he had real balls, he would have boycotted the prayer totally.
    PeteEU

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    Re: Atheist State Lawmaker Quotes Carl Sagan Instead of Doing Prayer Before House Ses

    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckBerry View Post
    Bowing your head represents a recognition that there is something greater than yourself, an acknowledgement without which public service is impossible.
    Oh? So without god it is impossible to be a public servant? Interesting position. Care to back it up with any facts or examples?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    No, it represents submission to authority. You don't bow your head in awe of a supernova. You don't bow your head because you serve a population of people. You bow to a king, to a ruler. And that is the ultimate reason why religion cannot have a place in a modern government. The ultimate allegiance of the government and its officials is to the people, not to anything else. Lawmakers who serve god do not serve the people.
    This was god damn beautiful. Perfect.
    Last edited by RabidAlpaca; 05-25-13 at 06:25 AM.

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    Re: Atheist State Lawmaker Quotes Carl Sagan Instead of Doing Prayer Before House Ses

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    That system of laws predicated on individual rights and liberty brought us prohibition, kept women from working, enslaved Africans, and would have no issue with outlawing abortion, placing restrictions on marriage, and disallowing work on Sundays if the people wished it to be so.
    Prohibition, sexism, slavery, outlawing abortion, restrictions on marriage, and disallowing work on Sundays have all been done in the name of christianity, and most have been pulled directly out of the bible.

    I think we've found the problem.

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    Re: Atheist State Lawmaker Quotes Carl Sagan Instead of Doing Prayer Before House Ses

    "An atheist state lawmaker tasked with delivering the opening prayer for this afternoon's session of the House of Representatives asked that people not bow their heads. Democratic Representative Juan Mendez, of Tempe, instead spoke about his "secular humanist tradition" and even quoted author Carl Sagan."

    I'm amused at the separation and evil Christianity talk in this thread. It tells me most here have no idea what Secular Humanism is. It is a religion.

    "Humanists are content with fixing their attention on this life...Theirs is a religion without God..."

    Morain, Lloyd & Mary - HUMANISM AS THE NEXT STEP, (Boston: Beacon Press, 1954) p. 4

    And exactly what is the goal of Secular Humanism?

    "If we humanists have a primary mission, it should be to reconstruct education-to train teachers."

    Kurtz, Paul - IN DEFENSE OF SECULAR HUMANISM, (Buffalo: Prometheus Press, 1983) p. 207

    And some would promote this.

    "I am convinced that the battle for humankind's future must be waged and won in the public school classroom by teachers who correctly perceive their role as the proselytizers of the new faith...These teachers must imbody the same selfless dedication as the most rabid fundamentalist preachers, for they will be ministers of another sort, utilizing a classroom instead of a pulpit to convey humanist values in whatever subjects they teach, regardless of the educational level-preschool day care or large state university. The classroom must and will become an arena of conflict between the old and the new-the rotting corpse of Christianity...and the new faith of humanism."

    Dunphy, John `A Religion For A New Age' in, THE HUMANIST, Jan/Feb, 1983, p. 26

    Separation indeed...

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    Re: Atheist State Lawmaker Quotes Carl Sagan Instead of Doing Prayer Before House Ses

    If one wishes to be a public servant, the implication is that he is submissive. To what? To the will of the people at least. If one is not willing to subsume his personal goals to the will of the people, one cannot be a public servant. Presumably, that means that the public servant believes that the needs of the community are greater than his own.

    Since some people doggedly insist that they cannot/will not bow their heads to God, can you bow your head to the public that you serve? Can you show your community at least that much respect by demonstrating that their will should be greater than your own?
    The morality of abortion is not a religious belief, any more than the morality of slavery, apartheid, rape, larceny, murder or arson is a religious belief. These are norms of the natural law of mankind and can be legislated even in a completely religionless society.

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    Re: Atheist State Lawmaker Quotes Carl Sagan Instead of Doing Prayer Before House Ses

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    Really? WHAT, do you see as "greater than yourself"? What entity do you bow your head to? Why should anyone who doesn't hold the same beliefs act in the same manner?
    In the US, anyone that has more $$ than you is greater than you. You can choose not to acknowledge that, and then suffer the consequences.

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    Re: Atheist State Lawmaker Quotes Carl Sagan Instead of Doing Prayer Before House Ses

    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckBerry View Post
    If one wishes to be a public servant, the implication is that he is submissive. To what? To the will of the people at least. If one is not willing to subsume his personal goals to the will of the people, one cannot be a public servant. Presumably, that means that the public servant believes that the needs of the community are greater than his own.

    Since some people doggedly insist that they cannot/will not bow their heads to God, can you bow your head to the public that you serve? Can you show your community at least that much respect by demonstrating that their will should be greater than your own?
    Considering the constituents of a politician are living, breathing people, while god is a mythical beast with zero evidence, yes, you can behave rationally AND represent your constituents.

    If you're a politician that places god over your electorate, you are in dereliction of your duties.

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    Re: Atheist State Lawmaker Quotes Carl Sagan Instead of Doing Prayer Before House Ses

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    Surprising that this happened in Arizona
    It's hypocrisy on a grand scale. Atheists don't want religion pushed on them, yet they want to push their belief that God doesn't exist on others.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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