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Thread: Atheist State Lawmaker Quotes Carl Sagan Instead of Doing Prayer Before House Session

  1. #41
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    Re: Atheist State Lawmaker Quotes Carl Sagan Instead of Doing Prayer Before House Ses

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    And we long ago divorced government from religion for the benefit of both.
    Yes, it has worked out quite well, allegiances and all. But it's not that we've divorced government from religion, it's that we've divorced government from *a* religion.

    You can't truly divorce government from religion any more than you can divorce government from culture. In a representative government at least.
    Last edited by Taylor; 05-23-13 at 11:59 PM.

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    Re: Atheist State Lawmaker Quotes Carl Sagan Instead of Doing Prayer Before House Ses

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Yes, it has worked out quite well, allegiances and all. But it's not that we've divorced government from religion, it's that we've divorced government from *a* religion.

    You can't truly divorce government from religion any more than you can divorce government from culture. In a representative government at least.
    You most certainly can. You make a system of laws predicated upon the rights and liberties of the individual and then religion can have no rightful hold. Only the freedom of The People.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Atheist State Lawmaker Quotes Carl Sagan Instead of Doing Prayer Before House Ses

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    You most certainly can. You make a system of laws predicated upon the rights and liberties of the individual and then religion can have no rightful hold. Only the freedom of The People.
    That system of laws predicated on individual rights and liberty brought us prohibition, kept women from working, enslaved Africans, and would have no issue with outlawing abortion, placing restrictions on marriage, and disallowing work on Sundays if the people wished it to be so.

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    Re: Atheist State Lawmaker Quotes Carl Sagan Instead of Doing Prayer Before House Ses

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    That system of laws predicated on individual rights and liberty brought us prohibition, kept women from working, enslaved Africans, and would have no issue with outlawing abortion, placing restrictions on marriage, and disallowing work on Sundays if the people wished it to be so.
    No, archaic notions left over from history brought that. Though if you commit to the never ending fight for freedom, those sorts of notions eventually die out. Which is what happened and is still happening here. I truly free society increases its liberty with time.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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    Re: Atheist State Lawmaker Quotes Carl Sagan Instead of Doing Prayer Before House Ses

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    If what you say is true, then it is the atheists we need to watch out for, because they are apparently so bereft of morality that they would blindly show allegience to a nation, no matter the course of action. Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot... you just may be on to something there.
    That's really just sad. You go from "elected officials' highest priority should be to serve the people they govern, regardless of their religion" to "atheists are immoral and support genocide."

    I'm sure you'd be singing a very different tune about a politician's allegiances if they were praying to a different god than you are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    That system of laws predicated on individual rights and liberty brought us prohibition, kept women from working, enslaved Africans
    You mean institutions that are grounded in even more religious cultures from the past and are fully supported by biblical scripture?

    and would have no issue with outlawing abortion, placing restrictions on marriage, and disallowing work on Sundays if the people wished it to be so.
    And yet the secular constitution prohibits those things, even when people DO wish it to be so, or hadn't you noticed that when Christian majorities in a state vote to enact SSM bans, their courts strike them down as unconstitutional?
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

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    Re: Atheist State Lawmaker Quotes Carl Sagan Instead of Doing Prayer Before House Ses

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    That's really just sad. You go from "elected officials' highest priority should be to serve the people they govern, regardless of their religion" to "atheists are immoral and support genocide."

    I'm sure you'd be singing a very different tune about a politician's allegiances if they were praying to a different god than you are.
    I can only assume that since you seem to be so worried that a religious person might have an allegiance to something beyond his country, that atheists do not and steadfastly hold to that allegiance no matter what shape that country takes. I mean if not, then they're no better than those darn biblethumpers.

    and yet the secular constitution prohibits those things, even when people DO wish it to be so, or hadn't you noticed that when Christian majorities in a state vote to enact SSM bans, their courts strike them down as unconstitutional?
    The constitution can be changed. It happened with prohibition and it happened with abortion, albeit by a different means. If you were to fill the government with fundamentalists or atheists, they could enact incredible change in a very short time. Just think about the SCOTUS alone. If you can find a right to abortion in the Constitution, you can find just about anything if you want it bad enough.
    Last edited by Taylor; 05-24-13 at 02:08 AM.

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    Re: Atheist State Lawmaker Quotes Carl Sagan Instead of Doing Prayer Before House Ses

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    No, archaic notions left over from history brought that. Though if you commit to the never ending fight for freedom, those sorts of notions eventually die out. Which is what happened and is still happening here. I truly free society increases its liberty with time.
    There was nothing archaic about prohibition. It was brought to us by the progressives, along with eugenics and forced sterilizations. Progress! More recently they've been "increasing liberty" with progressive taxation, state funded welfare, universal healthcare and... oh my bad, liberty hasn't been increasing with time. At least not lately. We must not be a "truly free" society. Or maybe its just that we're truly free to shape our government as we see fit.

  8. #48
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    Re: Atheist State Lawmaker Quotes Carl Sagan Instead of Doing Prayer Before House Ses

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    I can only assume that since you seem to be so worried that a religious person might have an allegiance to something beyond his country, that atheists do not and steadfastly hold to that allegiance no matter what shape that country takes. I mean if not, then they're no better than those darn biblethumpers.
    Why do you think that belief in god would keep a country from doing evil things? And why did you so abruptly change the topic? I said, "officials who owe an allegiance to something other than the people they govern are not doing their job properly", and then you said that atheists will follow a government's actions without question. The two statements have nothing to do with each other. Of course your statement is wrong, but that should go without saying. And keep in mind, I have continually said "allegiance to the people", not to country in some fantastical, pseudo-patriotic manner.

    Which brings us to next silly statement.

    The constitution can be changed. It happened with prohibition and it happened with abortion, albeit by a different means. If you were to fill the government with fundamentalists or atheists, they could enact incredible change in a very short time. Just think about the SCOTUS alone. If you can find a right to abortion in the Constitution, you can find just about anything.
    Of course it can. And no, it would look pretty much the same with atheists in charge. The constitution is a secular document. Atheism has nothing to say about anything besides the validity of religion. It doesn't inform necessary positions on anything else. Meanwhile, major religions have something to say about everything. But yes, let's talk about abortion and prohibition. Prohibition was one of those religious morality rules that Christians in this country wanted to force on everyone else. And it didn't last very long. The secular constitution prevailed over the religious nonsense. And no, no one changed the constitution for abortion to be protected. It protects personal liberty. That includes a woman's right to choose. Just because it wasn't articulated before doesn't mean it wasn't true. You can't find "just about anything."

    To return to our original discussion, if you think it's fine for a representative to hold allegiance to a god over the people they represent, you'd be okay with a Muslim representative following what he felt Allah told him to do rather than the law?
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

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    Re: Atheist State Lawmaker Quotes Carl Sagan Instead of Doing Prayer Before House Ses

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    It depends.

    It's pretty easy, given the histrionics of the religious right.
    What about the religious left? Where do they fit in?

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    Re: Atheist State Lawmaker Quotes Carl Sagan Instead of Doing Prayer Before House Ses

    Quote Originally Posted by danarhea View Post
    That's what YOU believe. Do you want to force others to believe it too?

    There is a reason our forefathers put separation of church and state into our constitution. They remembered governments in Europe forcing people to practice THEIR religion or else. They left Europe and came here to escape all that persecution. Separation of church and state not only represents freedom of religion, but freedom FROM religion as well.

    The way I see it, if you want to force your religion down the throats of others, you should move to a country where forcing religion down the throats of others is accepted..... Like Iran.
    I don't believe they did separate Church and State. If so where did they do that?

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