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Thread: Atheist State Lawmaker Quotes Carl Sagan Instead of Doing Prayer Before House Session

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    Re: Atheist State Lawmaker Quotes Carl Sagan Instead of Doing Prayer Before House Ses

    Quote Originally Posted by hfd View Post
    No, there does not have to be proof for something to be true. There has to be tangible evidence for something to be factual. Neither you nor John Hagee can demonstrate your truths. One is right and one is wrong, both positions are based on faith and belief, not presentable fact. Again the State Rep is trying to impose his religious beliefs on a governmental body. You do understand that don't you?
    Atheism is based on lack of belief, not a belief. There is ZERO reason for me to believe that an invisible sky man is controlling the world. You have refused to provide evidence, so I must assume you are also full of ****.

    Why should your god in particular be without reproach and accepted without evidence, while all other gods should be ignored? What makes you so special?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Jeez, man. At least my invisible gorilla isn't raping anyone.
    The unicorn assumed that he wanted it, because there was no evidence showing that he didn't want it. That's the way invisible **** works.

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    Re: Atheist State Lawmaker Quotes Carl Sagan Instead of Doing Prayer Before House Ses

    Quote Originally Posted by hfd View Post
    I can video the here and now to provide proof of not having sex with a unicorn, I'm not invisible. Nice try, now provide tangible evidence there ia no God. The burden of proof is a as much on non believers as it is on believers. Both groups make claims they simply cannot prove. Again the state rep in Az is attempting to impose his religious beliefs on others. I'm sure you can understand that.
    We can watch a video of you pretending not to be raped. We can't see the invisible unicorn, but he must be there. See how that works?
    Don't work out, work in.

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    Re: Atheist State Lawmaker Quotes Carl Sagan Instead of Doing Prayer Before House Ses

    Quote Originally Posted by hfd View Post
    Good post.
    Like it like it like it!!!
    Either I'm right or you're wrong.

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    Re: Atheist State Lawmaker Quotes Carl Sagan Instead of Doing Prayer Before House Ses

    I have difficulty believing in a God that suffers from vanity, favoritism, sadism, apparent lack of caring synonymous with psychosis, and a worse sense of humor than Jay Leno.
    Either I'm right or you're wrong.

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    Re: Atheist State Lawmaker Quotes Carl Sagan Instead of Doing Prayer Before House Ses

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    So then what's the difference in these types of atheists?
    In the end? Not a whole lot. It's semantics at the smallest level. Me: "there is no evidence there is a god, therefore I need not entertain the possibility that a gods exists -- and therefore for all practical purposes no god exists." You: "there is no evidence there is a god, therefore no god exists." The only measurable difference is that I won't be forced into a position of having to prove a negative.

    What's the difference between "actively believing" that there is no god and concluding that there isn't based on lack of evidence.
    If the conversation is between atheists, negligible at best. If it's between atheists and religious people then I think the difference is more significant.

    I suppose if you define "belief" the way that theists tend to, which is adhering to a position despite contradictory evidence, but in basically every other case, belief is a conclusion based on knowledge. I believe that you are no plagued by an invisible gorilla. Because of the available evidence. So, what makes it "active"?
    Making the statement that, unconditionally, no invisible gorilla exists.

    This reminds me a bit of the whole assertion about "militant" atheists. That is, atheists that try to prove their case, rather than just quietly blending into the theistic society around them and pretending not to be different. It seems like a distinction that only exists in the minds of detractors, and shows how much they cannot stand having anything less than a complete stranglehold on society. And how they are so used to having it that they don't realize it for what it is.
    True, but some atheists really do approach proselytizing levels of atheism which is at least as annoying and unhelpful as what fundamentalist Christians practice. But despite a view of active vs. passive atheism that doesn't mean that I sit like a quiet little wallflower when the discussion comes up.

    Jeez, man. At least my invisible gorilla isn't raping anyone.

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    Re: Atheist State Lawmaker Quotes Carl Sagan Instead of Doing Prayer Before House Ses

    It's interesting to observe that the Catholics on this forum - ChuckBerry being the greatest offender - are calling for "humility", for "humbleness".

    The Catholic Church is possibly the least humble institution on this mortal coil, with the possible exception of the United States Federal government. It proclaims itself catholic, universal, fit for all men everywhere at every time regardless of temporality or circumstance. It engages in a deeply pagan practice - the elevation of a single man to the level of the vox dei, who speaks with at least some degree of authority for God on matters of tradition and Scriptural interpretation - that runs deeply counter to all rational conceptions of "humility" or "humbleness". It then abnegates the value of individualism: it sees every man as being all men, in the plural, essentially without value as atomised individuals and worthy of consideration only in the aggregate.

    I deny that humility has any inherent moral value, either in a private citizen or a public leader. Leadership requires boldness, a willingness to act, and consequently a willingness to accept that one is right. Humility in a public servant too often breeds timidity.
    Last edited by Einzige; 05-25-13 at 05:15 PM.
    I dip my forefinger in the watery blood of your impotent mad-redeemer (your Divine Democrat — your Hebrew Madman) and write over his thorn-torn brow, “The true prince of Evil — the king of the Slaves!”
    - Ragnar Redbeard, Might Is Right, 1890

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    Re: Atheist State Lawmaker Quotes Carl Sagan Instead of Doing Prayer Before House Ses

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    No lesser and expert on God than the Pope has come out in defense of athiests and believes that if people do good, even athiests will find a place in heaven.

    Pope Francis defends atheists

    As a non-practicing Catholic, this is the first thing a Pope has said in decades that I can get behind. There may be hope for the Catholic Church after all.
    I'm no fan of the Catholic Church, but to give credit where its due, the recent popes have been consistently anti-war. They aren't as active as they should be, but they have been a consistent voice against the movement to expand or start more wars.

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    Re: Atheist State Lawmaker Quotes Carl Sagan Instead of Doing Prayer Before House Ses

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    In the end? Not a whole lot. It's semantics at the smallest level. Me: "there is no evidence there is a god, therefore I need not entertain the possibility that a gods exists -- and therefore for all practical purposes no god exists." You: "there is no evidence there is a god, therefore no god exists." The only measurable difference is that I won't be forced into a position of having to prove a negative.

    Making the statement that, unconditionally, no invisible gorilla exists.
    I suppose the difference then lies in notions of absolute truth. We don't know any 100% absolute truths. That is part of science and really an unalterable (though just shy of 100%) truth. Functionally, there is no difference between our two positions. I'm just using slightly stronger language and not adding the "for all practical purposes" clause, because I think it is redundant to add that to all assertions of fact. I am typing on a computer right now. I am not for all practical purposes typing on a computer right now. I get what you're saying, but it is very much a semantic difference and unworthy of putting us into divergent camps.

    If the conversation is between atheists, negligible at best. If it's between atheists and religious people then I think the difference is more significant.

    True, but some atheists really do approach proselytizing levels of atheism which is at least as annoying and unhelpful as what fundamentalist Christians practice. But despite a view of active vs. passive atheism that doesn't mean that I sit like a quiet little wallflower when the discussion comes up.
    I am glad to hear that you are not a wallflower. When it comes to the notion of proselytizing, I take exception to the idea that atheists do that. The proposition that god does or does not exist is a factual assertion, the same as an assertion that the moon does or does not exist. Asserting a factual position is not proselytizing. It ought to be subject to scrutiny and rejected if there is no evidence, but that's what we're talking about above. Proselytizing is more about lifestyle. It's saying "you should live the way I do", but again, it only really applies to religions. Anti-drug campaigns aren't proselytizing, are they? They're asserting that we should live drug-less lives. But even they have a few facts to back that up. Speed really can kill you, heroin is very addictive, and a smoking habit can be very expensive in the long run. Proselytizing, to me, seems like a call to "join our religion because it is better, and it is better merely because we say it is." I don't think that any equivalent activity is proselytizing without the religious aspect or the arbitrariness of the assertion.

    However, given the importance of the social issues involved, like civil rights, violence, education, science, and war, can you really blame people for taking a stand about their position? Let's take Dawkins as an example. There's at least one thread around right now about hating on Dawkins. His big deal is about education for kids. He gets really mad about kids being taught to fear hell so that they'll submit to religious teachings, and about kids being told demonstrable falsehoods as science. We've all seen this notorious creationist test, haven't we?

    creationist-science-test.jpg

    Teaching kids that, and then teaching them that they'll be burned forever if they ever question it, is a pretty cruel thing to do to a kid. Shouldn't a passionate science teacher, as Dawkins is, devote his passion and energy to stopping that? And doesn't the fact that he has evidence and truth on his side make him more righteous than his opponents?

    When it comes to this sort of discussion and the assertion that atheists should be more "respectful" of theists' beliefs, I always come back to the flat-earthers. Should the rest of us respect their belief, or tell them to buy a globe and stop being dumb? Or explain to them how the appearance of the tops of objects over the horizon as you approach would not happen if the world were flat? Should anyone ever be faulted for telling people the verifiable truth?
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

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    Re: Atheist State Lawmaker Quotes Carl Sagan Instead of Doing Prayer Before House Ses

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    That system of laws predicated on individual rights and liberty brought us prohibition, kept women from working, enslaved Africans, and would have no issue with outlawing abortion, placing restrictions on marriage, and disallowing work on Sundays if the people wished it to be so.
    That system of laws was NOT predicated on individual rights and liberty for all. That system was overly influenced by religionists who sanctioned those oppressive laws.

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    Re: Atheist State Lawmaker Quotes Carl Sagan Instead of Doing Prayer Before House Ses

    Quote Originally Posted by ChuckBerry View Post
    If one wishes to be a public servant, the implication is that he is submissive. To what? To the will of the people at least. If one is not willing to subsume his personal goals to the will of the people, one cannot be a public servant. Presumably, that means that the public servant believes that the needs of the community are greater than his own.

    Since some people doggedly insist that they cannot/will not bow their heads to God, can you bow your head to the public that you serve? Can you show your community at least that much respect by demonstrating that their will should be greater than your own?
    When I work as a public servant I metaphorically bow down to the people as I strive to them give them the quality of service they deserve. (or better)

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